A. I. Root, liar no. 4 after the Wright Brothers and their mentor, Octave Chanute

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ozon
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Re: A. I. Root, liar no. 4 after the Wright Brothers and their mentor, Octave Chanute

Post by ozon »

Two physical impossibilities reported by Wilbur Wright to Octave Chanute:

1) "While the new machine lifts at a speed of about 23 miles, it is only after the speed reaches 27 or 28 miles that the resistance falls below the thrust. ", Wilbur Wright, August 8, 1904

The plane lifted at 23 mph having the Thrust smaller than the Drag all the time (no catapult was used)!

2) "We find that the greatest speed over the ground is attained in the flights against the stronger breezes.", Wilbur Wright, August 28, 1904

The reality is that a headwind slows down a plane and this is exactly the opposite of what W. Wright claimed he had measured.

Only one conclusion can be drawn, the two letters describe imaginary flights and Wilbur Wright was simply bluffing (unfortunately for him using misconceptions, wrong beliefs, not good physics and math) with the intention to convince Octave Chanute and others that he had really flown.

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Letter 1: Fragment from a letter addressed by Wilbur Wright to Octave Chanute, on August 8, 1904: "One of the Saturday flights reached 600 ft. ... We have found great difficulty in getting sufficient initial velocity to get real starts. While the new machine lifts at a speed of about 23 miles, it is only after the speed reaches 27 or 28 miles that the resistance falls below the thrust. We have found it practically impossible to reach a higher speed than about 24 miles on a track of available length, and as the winds are mostly very light, and full of lulls in which the speed falls to almost nothing, we often find the relative velocity below the limit and are unable to proceed. ... It is evident that we will have to build a starting device that will render us independent of wind." Source: Page 52 of Octave Chanute Papers: Special Correspondence--Wright Brothers, 1904 | Library of Congress

Letter 2: Fragment from the letter written by Wilbur Wright to Octave Chanute on August 28, 1904: "Dayton, Ohio, August 28, 1904. Dear Mr Chanute ... ... Since the first of August we have made twenty five starts with the #2 Flyer. The longest flights were 1432 ft., 1304 ft, 1296, ft. and 1260 ft. These are about as long as we can readily make on over present grounds without circling. We find that the greatest speed over the ground is attained in the flights against the stronger breezes. We find that our speed at startup is about 29 or 30 ft per second, the last 60 ft of track being covered in from 2 to 2 1/4 seconds. The acceleration toward the end being very little. When the wind averages much below 10 ft per second it is very difficult to maintain flight, because the variations of the wind are such as to reduce the relative speed so low at times that the resistance becomes greater than the thrust of the screws. Under such circumstances the best of management will not insure a long flight, and at the best the speed accelerates very slowly. In one flight of 39 1/4 seconds the average speed over the ground was only 33 ft per second, a velocity only about 3 ft per second greater than that at startup. The wind averaged 12 ft per second. In a flight against a wind averaging 17 ft per second, the average speed over the ground was 42 ft per second, an average relative velocity of 59 ft per second and an indicated maximum velocity of 70 ft per second. We think the machine when in full flight will maintain an average relative speed of at least 45 miles an hour. This is rather more than we care for at present. Our starting apparatus is approaching completion and then we will be ready to start in calms and practice circling. Yours truly Wilbur Wright." Source: Page 55 of Octave Chanute Papers: Special Correspondence--Wright Brothers, 1904 | Library of Congress

Attention: The flights Wilbur Wright talked about in his August 8 and 28 letters to Octave Chanute (see were done close to Dayton Ohio, at a few meters above a flat pasture. No catapult was used.

Wilbur Wright did not know that the airspeed of a plane is independent of the wind-speed

The elder of the two brothers had a logbook for keeping track of the lies transmitted with the help of his letters to Octave Chanute and others. In this notebook, at page 8, with flight data about alleged flights performed on August 13, 1904, Wilbur wrote the same figures as in the August 28, 1904, text addressed to O. Chanute but in a more organised manner.

This is what he recorded and calculated (see the attached picture):

Flight 28 (second flight of August 13, 1904)
Av wind = 12.2 fps
Speed = 33.2 fps
Rel. Speed = 45.4 fps

Flight 29 (third flight of August 13, 1904)
Av wind = 17 fps
Speed = 42 fps
Rel. Speed = 59 fps

Flight 30 (fourth flight of August 13, 1904)
Av wind = 14 fps
Speed = 35 fps
Rel. Speed = 49 fps

Remark: The wind-speed was measured with a ground anemometer and the ground-speed of the plane was calculated from the flight time and the distance traveled across the pasture.

As you can see, for each of the three flights, W. Wright correctly applied the formula:

Ground Speed = Relative Speed - Wind Speed

However, he missed the fact that the relative speed (the airspeed) must be the same for all flights because a plane moving in a block of air traveling in a certain direction has no means to know that the air is moving. The plane always sees itself as traveling in calm air (no wind).

Relative Speed= ct (This is what W. Wright did not know when he did the math for his imaginary flights of August 13, 1908)

If you look at the three trials mentioned above you will see that instead of going down, with an increase of the headwind-speed, the ground-speed was also growing!!

Image
Source: https://www.loc.gov/resource/mwright.01011/?sp=6
(The 1904-1905 Notebook of Wilbur Wright)

Definitely what Wilbur wrote in his logbook and in the August 28, 1904, letter to O. Chanute is a proven fraud. He simply could not have obtained three different air-speeds for three distinct headwind-speeds had he and his brother really flown a powered plane.
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Re: A. I. Root, liar no. 4 after the Wright Brothers and their mentor, Octave Chanute

Post by Cliff Jumper »

Ok, so let's pretend that is all true. Why are you wasting your time trying to convince a few anonymous people on avcanada?
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Re: A. I. Root, liar no. 4 after the Wright Brothers and their mentor, Octave Chanute

Post by 5x5 »

Cliff Jumper wrote:Ok, so let's pretend that is all true. Why are you wasting your time trying to convince a few anonymous people on avcanada?
I'm sure it's because that's just what he does. (ozon pictured here at the latest Flat Earth Society meeting)
Image
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Re: A. I. Root, liar no. 4 after the Wright Brothers and their mentor, Octave Chanute

Post by rxl »

Beefitarian wrote:Holy macaroni. Heavier than air flight is a myth?
Does this mean that we all get the day off work tomorrow?
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Re: A. I. Root, liar no. 4 after the Wright Brothers and their mentor, Octave Chanute

Post by Zaibatsu »

The biggest case for the Wrights being first was the massive amount of litigation between Glenn Curtiss and the Smithsonian regarding the Wright Brother's patents. They took Samuel Langley's Aerodrome out of storage, and secretly modified it so it was capable of flight so it would negate their first flight claim and end the patent dispute.

Had they not made their flight or had their machine been incapable of flight, there would have been no need to do this. Likewise had Gustav Whitehead or others flown before the Wrights, that exercise with the Aerodrome would have been unnecessary.

Nearly half a century later, the Smithsonian admitted with great embarrassment that they had tried to discredit the Wrights, and offered a permanent home for the Flyer. Why do this if it was all a fraud?

Maybe the Flyer flew in 1903, maybe it didn't. But what is not up for dispute is the system of control they used was the most advanced, was not invented prior to them using it, and is present in some form on nearly every aircraft today (exceptions being aircraft like the B-2 and trikes).

The Farman pictured didn't have it. Sure it can fly higher and faster and further thanks to a triumph of thrust over aerodynamics, but it is nowhere near as advanced as the Flyer. It had massive fixed tail surfaces which endeavoured to reduce the lazy side slipping through the air ever time it turned.

This was the key to the Flyer, and why Curtiss went through such great lengths to circumvent the Wright's patents: first through using separate airfoils for ailerons vs integral or wing warping, then through discrediting the Wrights' claim.
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ozon
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Re: A. I. Root, liar no. 4 after the Wright Brothers and their mentor, Octave Chanute

Post by ozon »

1) The ailerons were not invented by the Wright brothers. Their description appears in a 1868 patent.
Image
See: Matthew Piers Watt Boulton's 1868 aileron patent, No. 392

2) Henri Farman flew without ailerons of any kind for up to 42 km, in close circuit. It is a myth that Wing Warping or ailerons in general were essential for making turns.
- January 13, 1908---the first complete circuit of 1000m, 1:28 min.
- March 21---DURATION AND DISTANCE RECORD flight of 2004.8 m in 3:31 min.
- July 6, 1908---At Issy, Farman flew 20 km in 19:6 min.
- September 29, 1908---42 km in 43 min. at Mourmelon.
- September 30, 1908---34 km in 35:36 min. at Mourmelon.
- October 2, 1908---40 km in 44:32 min. at Mourmelon.
- October 28, 1908---M. Painleve carried about two km and other flights made up to 40 km. Ailerons put on.
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Re: A. I. Root, liar no. 4 after the Wright Brothers and their mentor, Octave Chanute

Post by lownslow »

I bet you're fun at parties.
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Re: A. I. Root, liar no. 4 after the Wright Brothers and their mentor, Octave Chanute

Post by kevind »

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Re: A. I. Root, liar no. 4 after the Wright Brothers and their mentor, Octave Chanute

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

lownslow wrote:I bet you're fun at parties.
I just spat my coffee reading that! (Thanks now I need a new keyboard!)
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Re: A. I. Root, liar no. 4 after the Wright Brothers and their mentor, Octave Chanute

Post by av8ts »

And he gets all the girls
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ozon
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Re: A. I. Root, liar no. 4 after the Wright Brothers and their mentor, Octave Chanute

Post by ozon »

The Wright brothers = just NOISE IN NEWSPAPERS before August 8, 1908

Read the text below, dated October 6, 1905, which talks about a lot of witnesses, including authorities from different towns, admiring the Wrights flying, on a daily basis. Needless to say that no name is mentioned. The credibility of such SF articles is zero.

The Flight of a flying Machine
——
Was in the Air Twenty-Five Minutes Thursday Afternoon Near Simms Station.
——
WRIGHT BROTHERS HAVE PERFECTED INVENTION.
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Have Been Experimenting All Week on the Huffman Prairies, East of Dayton, With Their Aeroplane.
——
LARGE PARTY SEES TESTS.
——
The Inventors and Builders of the Machine Have Built a Shed on the Prairie for Storing the Big Air Ship — Flights Have Startled the Residents of the Neighborhood. Great Interest Manifested.
——
With improvements innumerable made to their craft, after months of work, Orville and Wilbur Wright, the youthful Dayton inventors, are making a series of flights in the vicinity of Simm’s Station, on the Dayton, Springfield and Urbana electric road, several miles from Dayton. These trials have been undisputedly some of the most successful expeditions that flying machines have ever made.
Residents of the locality where the experiments have been lately carried on turn out en masse at each ascension, and predict great results from the enterprise of the two Daytonians.
Likewise, many from Dayton and a number of authorities from different towns are daily witnesses of the remarkable flights, and are similarly profuse in their predictions of success.
Thursday afternoon a flight was made, and according to reliable witnesses, the machine soared gracefully for some 25 minutes, responding to all demands of the pilot. At the expiration of this time, fear that the machine could not be sustained aloft much longer, a descent was made by one of the inventors.
Every day this week flights have been made, almost, with equal success.
The expectations of the Wright brothers have been decidedly surpassed by their most recent experiments, and they feel that their craft is in the immediate neighborhood of perfection.
The brothers have been experimenting for the past two years. Their first successes attracted wide attention and were chronicled throughout the country.
Several Dayton people went out to the Huffman prairies Thursday afternoon to witness the trials. Some time ago the Wright brothers, who are both expert mechanics, conceived the idea of building a flying machine. They made some of their drawings in this city and from here they went to South Carolina to build the machine and try it out. They worked diligently to perfect their plans and finally succeeded in building a machine which would fly.
They gave the machine a severe tryout on one of the long stretches of beach in the south, and after a stay of over two years they returned to Dayton and built a shed on the Huffman prairies, where they are giving their machine a thorough test.

Source: “The Flight of a Flying Machine”, Dayton Daily News, Ohio, US, October 6, 1905, Scrapbook - Library of Congress, US.
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Re: A. I. Root, liar no. 4 after the Wright Brothers and their mentor, Octave Chanute

Post by mantogasrsrwy »

goldeneagle wrote:
ozon wrote: Detail of the well known picture allegedly taken on December 17, 1903.
You are aware that the photo in question was taken by an army photographer who validated it?
Are you sure he didn't photoshop it? :shock:
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Re: A. I. Root, liar no. 4 after the Wright Brothers and their mentor, Octave Chanute

Post by confusedalot »

Russian collusion is my guess. :smt015
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