Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

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Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by single_swine_herder » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:41 am

Who knows?

Is this more baffle-gab, or will something actually proceed through the regulatory process?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ca ... content=V1
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Rockie » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:19 am

"What's the rush" says John McKenna (President of ATAC) without any sense of irony.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by DanWEC » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:47 am

He doesn't sound in the slightest like he has any concern whatsoever for pilot welfare or the safety of the travelling public. What a piece of work.

Anyhow, I'm glad the regs are proceeding finally. What I still disagree with is the 12 hour bottle to throttle. Garneau states that it is being looked at because of 2 incidents where pilots were caught under the influence in the last year.
It doesn't make any sense, because it would assume that those drunk pilots would have been magically sober and fit in 2 more hours? Since obviously not, it's therefore the wrong solution.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Rowdy » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:38 am

The 12hr change is simply to provide an illusion of safety to the public. Most if not all Air operators already have the 12hr rule in their COM or Contract. Total. Farce.

The duty regs need the work. I have ZERO faith in Garneau and even less now in Mckenna.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Meatservo » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:05 pm

DanWEC wrote:What I still disagree with is the 12 hour bottle to throttle. Garneau states that it is being looked at because of 2 incidents where pilots were caught under the influence in the last year.
It doesn't make any sense, because it would assume that those drunk pilots would have been magically sober and fit in 2 more hours? Since obviously not, it's therefore the wrong solution.
Isn't that 4 more hours?
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by confusedalot » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:24 pm

canada is approaching the 20th century? wow. how long to the 21st?
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by DanWEC » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:41 pm

Meatservo wrote:
DanWEC wrote:What I still disagree with is the 12 hour bottle to throttle. Garneau states that it is being looked at because of 2 incidents where pilots were caught under the influence in the last year.
It doesn't make any sense, because it would assume that those drunk pilots would have been magically sober and fit in 2 more hours? Since obviously not, it's therefore the wrong solution.
Isn't that 4 more hours?

HA! Correct. I fly planes. :)

Point still stands however. Those who are rip roaring drunk upon report have issues other than mistiming their last drink.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by AuxBatOn » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:42 pm

If you have a pressing need to drink alchool between 8 and 12 hours before a flight, you may want to consider seeking help.

12 hours is in line with industry standard.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Black_Tusk » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:53 pm

What needs to be addressed is stand ups. Especially ones with minimum rest, followed by a long flight. The fact we still allow CD's is baffling. I do them regularly (not by choice) and I am a zombie. Yet if you booked for the return flight you'd like get the "well no one else is" attitude.

A 2.5 hour flight, followed by 3 hours on the pillow and another 2.5 hour flight is not safe. And before anyone says "well it's a CD, you're lucky you even get rest." I could understand that argument if you ONLY worked CD's. But jumping from multi day early check in pairings, a day off into a stand up followed by half a day off into another early check in pairing is not exactly easy.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by leftoftrack » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:24 am

Black_Tusk wrote:What needs to be addressed is stand ups. Especially ones with minimum rest, followed by a long flight. The fact we still allow CD's is baffling. I do them regularly (not by choice) and I am a zombie. Yet if you booked for the return flight you'd like get the "well no one else is" attitude.

A 2.5 hour flight, followed by 3 hours on the pillow and another 2.5 hour flight is not safe. And before anyone says "well it's a CD, you're lucky you even get rest." I could understand that argument if you ONLY worked CD's. But jumping from multi day early check in pairings, a day off into a stand up followed by half a day off into another early check in pairing is not exactly easy.
If you're not responsible enough to call in unfit when you are unfit. You're in the wrong industry.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by leftoftrack » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:24 am

Double post
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Rockie » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:05 am

leftoftrack wrote:
Black_Tusk wrote:What needs to be addressed is stand ups. Especially ones with minimum rest, followed by a long flight. The fact we still allow CD's is baffling. I do them regularly (not by choice) and I am a zombie. Yet if you booked for the return flight you'd like get the "well no one else is" attitude.

A 2.5 hour flight, followed by 3 hours on the pillow and another 2.5 hour flight is not safe. And before anyone says "well it's a CD, you're lucky you even get rest." I could understand that argument if you ONLY worked CD's. But jumping from multi day early check in pairings, a day off into a stand up followed by half a day off into another early check in pairing is not exactly easy.
If you're not responsible enough to call in unfit when you are unfit. You're in the wrong industry.
Everybody is responsible for safety, but none more so than a Transport Canada.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Heliian » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:09 am

AuxBatOn wrote:If you have a pressing need to drink alchool between 8 and 12 hours before a flight, you may want to consider seeking help.

12 hours is in line with industry standard.
I think you'll find that sober pilots have killed more people than drunk ones.

The only help I need is choosing which wine to have with my meal. As someone said above, making the hrs. longer doesn't make a difference to those that do have a problem, they'll still be drunk.

perceived safety.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Roar » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:02 am

The new duty time regs. Are a ridiculous attempt at a one size fits all solution designed for the airlines. I understand that the 705 world needs new duty limits but to paint all 704 operations with the same brush is asinine. I personally fly on average 3-4 days a month so even if all of my days were 14 hours on duty TC is going to tell me I'm fatigued? It's a joke.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Rockie » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:47 am

Roar wrote:The new duty time regs. Are a ridiculous attempt at a one size fits all solution designed for the airlines. I understand that the 705 world needs new duty limits but to paint all 704 operations with the same brush is asinine. I personally fly on average 3-4 days a month so even if all of my days were 14 hours on duty TC is going to tell me I'm fatigued? It's a joke.
I don't think as humans evolved they did so to fit into to 704 or 705 categories. Fatigue is fatigue.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Roar » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:20 am

Rockie wrote:
Roar wrote:The new duty time regs. Are a ridiculous attempt at a one size fits all solution designed for the airlines. I understand that the 705 world needs new duty limits but to paint all 704 operations with the same brush is asinine. I personally fly on average 3-4 days a month so even if all of my days were 14 hours on duty TC is going to tell me I'm fatigued? It's a joke.
I don't think as humans evolved they did so to fit into to 704 or 705 categories. Fatigue is fatigue.
And not being fatigued is not being fatigued. So because a 705 pilot is fatigued after doing 20 days flying in a month with 14 hour duty days, that means that I can't work even one 14 hour day of the whole 4 days a month I fly. One is not equivalent to the other so the rules should reflect the actual operation one conducts, not just blanket cover everyone with the same rule.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Redneck_pilot86 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:40 am

Roar wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Roar wrote:The new duty time regs. Are a ridiculous attempt at a one size fits all solution designed for the airlines. I understand that the 705 world needs new duty limits but to paint all 704 operations with the same brush is asinine. I personally fly on average 3-4 days a month so even if all of my days were 14 hours on duty TC is going to tell me I'm fatigued? It's a joke.
I don't think as humans evolved they did so to fit into to 704 or 705 categories. Fatigue is fatigue.
And not being fatigued is not being fatigued. So because a 705 pilot is fatigued after doing 20 days flying in a month with 14 hour duty days, that means that I can't work even one 14 hour day of the whole 4 days a month I fly. One is not equivalent to the other so the rules should reflect the actual operation one conducts, not just blanket cover everyone with the same rule.
Just because we all have pilots licences does not mean we all work the same style of jobs. You are not fatigued because you have been at work 14 hours, you are fatigued because of WHAT you did at work for those 14 hours. Theres days I do a flight at 7am, come back and surf AvCanada all day, and do another flight at 1900. Other days I spend 10+ hours in the air. Sometimes I'm tired afterwards, sometimes I'm looking for more. It depends on my loads, the weather, how much help I get, etc. As Roar said, you can't paint all pilots with the same brush any more than truck drivers, cabbies, train conductors and school bus drivers should be on the same set of regs.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by AuxBatOn » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:07 am

Heliian wrote:
AuxBatOn wrote:If you have a pressing need to drink alchool between 8 and 12 hours before a flight, you may want to consider seeking help.

12 hours is in line with industry standard.
I think you'll find that sober pilots have killed more people than drunk ones.

The only help I need is choosing which wine to have with my meal. As someone said above, making the hrs. longer doesn't make a difference to those that do have a problem, they'll still be drunk.

perceived safety.
If you had the same amont of pilots flying drunk than flying sober, you'd see that this stat would likely not be true.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Rockie » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:32 am

Redneck_pilot86 wrote:As Roar said, you can't paint all pilots with the same brush any more than truck drivers, cabbies, train conductors and school bus drivers should be on the same set of regs.
Yes you can. Humans are humans, and we are all subject to the same circadian rhythm and fatigue influences as the next guy regardless of what we're doing for a living. F&DT regulations have to be written according to science which they are on the cusp of being. In cases where fatigue is present despite the regulations we have CAR 602.02. There cannot be rules exempting pilots allowing them to go beyond the regulations because 1. we are the worst judges of when we are fatigued, and 2. it is open for abuse.

By the way, train crews and truck drivers have much lower duty times than we do.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by leftoftrack » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:05 am

By the way, train crews and truck drivers have much lower duty times than we do
Not sure that's true Rockie

http://www.cvse.ca/national_safety_code ... _Rules.pdf

70hrs in 7days or 120 in 14 days can drive for 13 of a 14hr duty day, no need for an employer to supply a hotel.........which one of those is more restrictive?
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Roar » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:08 am

Rockie wrote:
Redneck_pilot86 wrote:As Roar said, you can't paint all pilots with the same brush any more than truck drivers, cabbies, train conductors and school bus drivers should be on the same set of regs.
Yes you can. Humans are humans, and we are all subject to the same circadian rhythm and fatigue influences as the next guy regardless of what we're doing for a living. F&DT regulations have to be written according to science which they are on the cusp of being. In cases where fatigue is present despite the regulations we have CAR 602.02. There cannot be rules exempting pilots allowing them to go beyond the regulations because 1. we are the worst judges of when we are fatigued, and 2. it is open for abuse.

By the way, train crews and truck drivers have much lower duty times than we do.

So you're trying to tell me I have the same fatigue levels working 4 days a month as someone working 20? That's comical.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Rockie » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:48 am

leftoftrack wrote:Not sure that's true Rockie
You're correct. My mistake.
Roar wrote:So you're trying to tell me I have the same fatigue levels working 4 days a month as someone working 20? That's comical.
No, that isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying you get just as tired during the course of a single day as anybody else. Lucky you that you only work 4 days a month, but if you're cramming a month's work into those 4 days then yes, you are without a doubt more fatigued while you are at work.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Roar » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:59 am

Rockie wrote:
leftoftrack wrote:Not sure that's true Rockie
You're correct. My mistake.
Roar wrote:So you're trying to tell me I have the same fatigue levels working 4 days a month as someone working 20? That's comical.
No, that isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying you get just as tired during the course of a single day as anybody else. Lucky you that you only work 4 days a month, but if you're cramming a month's work into those 4 days then yes, you are without a doubt more fatigued while you are at work.
That's not how it works for me though, my four days are not consecutive. A normal month would be something like a 6 hour duty day flying to New York, sit there doing nothing for 4 days then have a 6 hour duty day flying home, two weeks of no work at home then a 14 hour day to Stockholm, spend 7 days there hanging out then 14 hour day home followed by two weeks off. I know that's not a typical job but that's why the new rules make no sense to the operation I'm in, I'm no way fatigued. I understand a tier 3 704 carrier flying 20 days a month doing 8 sectors a day need the new rules. Just don't force one set on us all. They need to reflect what an operation actually does.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Rockie » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:09 am

You're still tired on that 14 hour day especially if you're flying overnight to Stockholm. It doesn't matter if you say you can do it, science says you're fatigued after that length of time on duty particularly at night. Whoever you work for will have to make some changes as will everybody else.
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Re: Minister of Transport says Fatigue Regs To Proceed

Post by Roar » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:45 am

I see, but you're fine at 13 hours as per the new regs. I guess one hour makes all the difference.
The scientific studies looked at airline pilots, not all types of flight operations. One 14 hour day then a week or two off does not make you fatigued. Using airline pilots data to impose requirements on corporate operations is a disingenuous argument.
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