Expired GPS database

[flt67233]

Hello, i am trying to find a reference in the CARs about using expired databases. A friend of mine is planning a trip across the states but his gps database is expired. I know you can't use it for approaches, but can he file IFR and use it for enroute navigation? Or does he need to stick to traditional nav aids and use it only for situational awareness? A CARs reference would be fantastic


thanks!

[linecrew]

Hello, i am trying to find a reference in the CARs about using expired databases. A friend of mine is planning a trip across the states but his gps database is expired. I know you can't use it for approaches, but can he file IFR and use it for enroute navigation? Or does he need to stick to traditional nav aids and use it only for situational awareness? A CARs reference would be fantastic


thanks!

Don't ever use expired pubs and/or gps databases. Among a slew of other things, how would you know if a new waypoint or airway segment has been added or removed?

[Big Pistons Forever]

605.18 No person shall conduct a take-off in a power-driven aircraft for the purpose of IFR flight unless it is equipped with


(j) sufficient radio navigation equipment to permit the pilot, in the event of the failure at any stage of the flight of any item of that equipment, including any associated flight instrument display,

(i) to proceed to the destination aerodrome or proceed to another aerodrome that is suitable for landing, and

(ii) where the aircraft is operated in IMC, to complete an instrument approach and, if necessary, conduct a missed approach procedure.

[Axial Flow]

First time landing in CYWG and I figured I was doing well as I had only one cycle off from the current pubs (given to me by Captain) and we were coming in on the ILS 36 just after the Captain was cut loose.

As we were short final we were cleared to land runway 36 and told to plan to exit Kilo....

We were both unfamiliar and I was flipping through every chart I had and not one showed a "kilo" in Winnipeg and the Captain was starting to get irate about how far down the runway Kilo was.

As we touched down I finally asked tower to confirm the location of Kilo taxiway and he said "Oh it's the old runway 25/07"....

I grabbed the Captain's charts and bam there it was. I was only a few weeks late to the party but learned early on it is important to have the most current information!

As far as GPS database...I can't say how many times I OBS'd a waypoint created by someone else to land off strip somewhere and never thought twice. Until that time I broke out over the Hudson Bay coast without any land insight...(pre moving map days). People wonder why I am a little paranoid these days weren't there in the beginning....

Just pay the money, get an up to date database and be done with it. If you have to ask how much, you can't afford it.

[valleyboy]

What's wrong with an expired GPS D/B if you confirm all points and I understand you can use an expired approach as long as there have been no changes and have confirmed this with current publications. You are sitting in B/F nowhere and won't use an expired GPS data base to get home -- come on gents use you heads and get the job done. You have confirmed an expired approach as to being current (no changes when compared to you approach plate) so what do you do, use the GPS or go to the NDB approach because you GPS data base has expired -- damn -- besides most general GPS units do not have a navigation data base and you are navigating point to point so confirm the published way points and fill your boots -- yet another example of common sense flying off into the sunset. Safe is the main word.

[photofly]

Some of you are not very good at searching the CARs.

Requirements for Power-driven Aircraft

602.60 (1) No person shall conduct a take-off in a power-driven aircraft, other than an ultra-light aeroplane, unless the following operational and emergency equipment is carried on board:
...

(c) a current database, if the aircraft is operated in IFR flight, in VFR OTT flight or in night VFR flight under Subpart 4 of Part VI or Subpart 2, 3, 4 or 5 of Part VII and database-dependent navigation equipment is used;


(d) current data covering the route of the proposed flight and any probable diversionary route, if the aircraft is operated in VFR OTT flight other than VFR OTT flight referred to in paragraph (c) and database-dependent navigation equipment is used;

IF you are a commercial (part VII) or Business operator relying on a non-current database for any portion of your IFR, VFR OTT or night VFR navigation is specifically forbidden, regardless of what you do with the waypoints. The fine is up to $3000 for individuals and up to $15,000 for corporations.

If you're a private aircraft not flying VFR OTT, I guess there's no such regulation.

[5x5]

Some of you are not very good at searching the CARs.

Here's the drill:

Start here - http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... age-1.html

Select the "Full Document - PDF version" or go to this link - http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/PDF/SOR-96-433.pdf

Hit "ctrl F" and enter your search term (it's a searchable PDF) like "current database" for instance and voila!!

[photofly]

You don't even need the pdf - just use the "full text" link - http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... lText.html and hit ctrl-F in the browser.

[5x5]

Yup, that works too. I just like the PDF because you can download it and don't have to be online to use/search it.

It's all good and just hope someone can benefit from being better able to investigate and find info for themselves.

[turbo-prop]

If you are using the last database and the new one just came into effect yesterday, then yes you can use the oid database for enroute, as long as way points are confirmed. No you can't use an expired database to do approaches. Current approach must be loaded into gps.

[AirFrame]

I seem to recall that in the US, if you have it onboard it has to be current, but I don't have a reference to support that. In Canada, for VFR flight, you merely need to know what the current information is... Your data can be expired, but if you know all of the changes made since your data expired, that is relevant to the route of your flight, you're fine.

[valleyboy]

a current database,

Would not paper approach plates and charts constitute a current data base????

[dirtdr]

a current database,

Would not paper approach plates and charts constitute a current data base????

If you are using traditional nav aids, yes. Not if you are going to fly direct, and then shoot a GNSS approach

[photofly]

On the subject of an approach based on traditional navaids, there's even protocol for ATC to dictate the approach information for you for those times when you don't have the plates:

MANOPS:

IMG_2141.PNG (127.82 KiB) Viewed 2870 times

[HiFlyChick]

If you are using the last database and the new one just came into effect yesterday, then yes you can use the oid database for enroute, as long as way points are confirmed. No you can't use an expired database to do approaches. Current approach must be loaded into gps.

You may get away with this argument if you're private, but if you're a commercial operator, it's just not worth the risk! Even if you check every single fix, it still comes down to a judgement call by the TC inspector if you get ramped, or worse still, if you have an accident. It could be a totally unrelated, not-your-fault accident, but you'd still get questioned as to why you don't have current pubs (electronic or otherwise) on board, and the fallout could far exceed the cost of updating the subscription.

[valleyboy]

I get it, but what does fly in the face of logic is that fixation on the phrase "it's legal" and the disregarding of common sense and the ability to make safe decisions when "it's legal" happens to be brain fart like leaving your license at home or just missing a D/B update. I would never purposely (as to many others) ignore an expired D/B and maybe from the flashy, lamb skin covered seats and with protection from your union or for the sunday driving general aviation types you can shut a flight down but to be able to deal with that stupid oversight in a professional, mature and safe way is almost becoming a thing of the past in aviation. In the new mind set legal trumps safe almost anytime. I see examples of it almost on a daily basis. I for one have never forgot to take my license with me, I always have it on my person at all times. I'm still trying to figure out if I'm legal if I get ramped because it's tattooed to my ass.

[linecrew]

I get it, but what does fly in the face of logic is that fixation on the phrase "it's legal" and the disregarding of common sense and the ability to make safe decisions when "it's legal" happens to be brain fart like leaving your license at home or just missing a D/B update. I would never purposely (as to many others) ignore an expired D/B and maybe from the flashy, lamb skin covered seats and with protection from your union or for the sunday driving general aviation types you can shut a flight down but to be able to deal with that stupid oversight in a professional, mature and safe way is almost becoming a thing of the past in aviation. In the new mind set legal trumps safe almost anytime. I see examples of it almost on a daily basis. I for one have never forgot to take my license with me, I always have it on my person at all times. I'm still trying to figure out if I'm legal if I get ramped because it's tattooed to my ass.

I agree that there are a variety of laws out there that may be excessive in certain circumstances. I guess what it comes down to is whether or not an individual is okay with breaking the law and accepting the punitive (or worse) consequences. Wouldn't be my choice personally but obviously others' opinions may vary.