YVR Flow

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CpnCrunch
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by CpnCrunch »

Alcoholism wrote:Thanks Diadem. Now, before Stu means the company and not the controllers, well if one were to say that AC or WS or insert your company here is second rate, wouldn't you think that would include the pilots? Perhaps better worded next time would be advisable. Every company has its issues. I hear many times from co workers making quips about controllers, so easy to do with lack of understanding. They're (ATC) trying to do their best. That is all.
"control staffing = maximum overtime" seemed pretty obvious to me (talking about management scheduling rather than controllers).
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Prodriver
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by Prodriver »

I have noticed it is being abused as well. There should be no need for loading up air crews with this crap, just deal with it or vector traffic for arrivals, etc. There are lots of tools in your tool kit to apply.(Speed, Vectors, holds Etc.)

How does one CADOR the ATC system that we are paying to use? Call and complain?
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Black_Tusk
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by Black_Tusk »

Not to mention not getting paid when you're sitting at another airport waiting for flow time with the door open.
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

I don't think anyone is implying that the Nav Canada controllers are second rate, or not working to the best of their ability. I, personally, have the utmost respect for the men and women who keep us safe each and every day, who see the big picture, when maybe the rest of us don't.

Where I get frustrated, is with the system itself. Often times, I can't wait to get south of the border. strictly speaking, as a pilot, the quality of service seems to be much better down there. Not in any way relating to the controllers in specific, but with the system as a whole. Nav Canada just seems to shit the bed on a daily basis. Is it all about the bottom line?
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Stu Pidasso
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by Stu Pidasso »

The CEO of Nav Canada earns 3.1 Million, along with a long list of overpaid executives. Controller salaries have quietly gone vertical over the last few years, largely due to overtime. If staffing levels ever got to where they should be, overtime would disappear. A friend of mine in VR Tower (VFR Controller) T4'd at 240K last year. Pretty good gig for a career that has zero educational prerequisites, zero financial investment in training, zero risk of personal harm and can sign up right out of high school.

Nav Canada is a service provider and are doing an abysmal job. Nothing against the working Controller, I appreciate all you do. This summer has been a nightmare, the mid August fiasco in YYZ took Air Canada a full week to recover from.

Who pays for that, certainly not Nav Canada. VR has been a joke this summer, slow down clearance 400 nm out, followed by "speed your discretion," followed by being the only Aircraft on approach.

The only jurisdiction I fly into, that is less efficient than Canada - is China.

Sorry boyz, that is the view from one of your customers and certainly shared by everyone I talk to.

Cheers
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Zaibatsu
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by Zaibatsu »

customers
Exactly!

For what we pay directly or indirectly, we should have better service.

At the very least they should keep us entertained all of the time.

"Ayaaaah Caaaanada Two Four Three radaaaaah identified, clooooim seven thousaaaand!"
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Black_Tusk
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by Black_Tusk »

Stu Pidasso wrote:Who pays for that, certainly not Nav Canada. VR has been a joke this summer, slow down clearance 400 nm out, followed by "speed your discretion," followed by being the only Aircraft on approach.
So true it hurts.
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rookiepilot
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by rookiepilot »

Stu Pidasso wrote:The CEO of Nav Canada earns 3.1 Million, along with a long list of overpaid executives.
3.1 million. US Fortune 500 territory, which Nav Can certainly isn't. Tell me anyone, why not 5 mill or more? Who decides these pay packages?

I read his bio. Former law partner, never has run a company before, so certainly qualified for 3 big ones a year.

Par for the course in old boys club, Canada. "Non profit" tends to mean except the CEO, board, senior execs......
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by Old fella »

rookiepilot wrote:
Stu Pidasso wrote:The CEO of Nav Canada earns 3.1 Million, along with a long list of overpaid executives.
3.1 million. US Fortune 500 territory, which Nav Can certainly isn't. Tell me anyone, why not 5 mill or more? Who decides these pay packages?

I read his bio. Former law partner, never has run a company before, so certainly qualified for 3 big ones a year.

Par for the course in old boys club, Canada. "Non profit" tends to mean except the CEO, board, senior execs......
Hey rookie.... don't fall off yer stool and laugh but I agree with you. I worked at NC and saw some of the operational decisions made on airspace restructuring that cost operators(who pay for NC services) a bundle. I can't speak of top echelon remuneration but........ you can fill in the blanks.
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rookiepilot
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by rookiepilot »

Old fella wrote:
rookiepilot wrote:
Stu Pidasso wrote:The CEO of Nav Canada earns 3.1 Million, along with a long list of overpaid executives.
3.1 million. US Fortune 500 territory, which Nav Can certainly isn't. Tell me anyone, why not 5 mill or more? Who decides these pay packages?

I read his bio. Former law partner, never has run a company before, so certainly qualified for 3 big ones a year.

Par for the course in old boys club, Canada. "Non profit" tends to mean except the CEO, board, senior execs......
Hey rookie.... don't fall off yer stool and laugh but I agree with you. I worked at NC and saw some of the operational decisions made on airspace restructuring that cost operators(who pay for NC services) a bundle. I can't speak of top echelon remuneration but........ you can fill in the blanks.
Might like this one OF.

https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark ... ation.html

One day the gravy train will run out.
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by Old fella »

rookiepilot wrote:
Old fella wrote:
rookiepilot wrote:
3.1 million. US Fortune 500 territory, which Nav Can certainly isn't. Tell me anyone, why not 5 mill or more? Who decides these pay packages?

I read his bio. Former law partner, never has run a company before, so certainly qualified for 3 big ones a year.

Par for the course in old boys club, Canada. "Non profit" tends to mean except the CEO, board, senior execs......
Hey rookie.... don't fall off yer stool and laugh but I agree with you. I worked at NC and saw some of the operational decisions made on airspace restructuring that cost operators(who pay for NC services) a bundle. I can't speak of top echelon remuneration but........ you can fill in the blanks.
Might like this one OF.

https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark ... ation.html

One day the gravy train will run out.
Nav Can spends operators aka AC, WJ et all dollars not taxpayer bucks but years back they were free spending believe me but things may have tightened up since I left years back in 2005 who knows. The surcharge aka NC fees, airport security and operating costs, fuel surcharges you name it places us in a less competitive market. You as a business person knows that much better than I can pontificate
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rookiepilot
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by rookiepilot »

OF,

This is a broader, deeper, entrenched Canadian problem. Evidence? How many great, world class companies have we created, that successfully compete on the world stage? Banks don't count.

Then look at the US, or Germany, Japan, Korea.

We just don't facilitate private enterprise very well.
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ahramin
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by ahramin »

Why don't banks count? Somehow (Trudeau senior perhaps) we have some of the most honest, most customer friendly, most secure banks in the world. Why not count them?
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rookiepilot
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by rookiepilot »

ahramin wrote:Why don't banks count? Somehow (Trudeau senior perhaps) we have some of the most honest, most customer friendly, most secure banks in the world. Why not count them?
We have a great, secure banking system, that's absolutely true. But like many of our industries, they are comfortably entrenched semi monopolies who sparingly venture out of Canada, or not at all. They are not innovators, creators, nor are timber businesses, for example.

I'm referring to companies that sell worldwide -- Apple, Hyundai (shipping, not just cars -- they are massive) Siemens (Germany) Nokia, Caterpillar, Toyota, many others.

We have exactly one in technology I can think of who is kicking a-- and taking names, Shopify. But it's fairly young. We will see, but our LT record isn't good. (Valeant, Nortel, RIM). Flame outs.

We are still largely oil, rocks, trees, fishing, tourism. And housing.

Why do the best innovators leave (often for Silicon Valley?)

I think, perhaps greatly oversimplifying, it's a big country club here, an old boys club.

Look at Bombardier. No serious US investor would invest in it, because you don't get an equal vote. Multiple voting shares are common here, not in the US. They are an old boys club thing, protects the board. Horrible creation. Shouldn't be allowed. That's how you have CEO's here pulling in 25 million, cause no one has a vote on it. Stealing from the shareholders.

FWIW I live here but rarely invest in Canada. Most of my activity is US based. One issue, The insider trading here is tolerated, and rampant, and I don't appreciate being ripped off that way. They simply don't care.

These are my views, but I've heard them from others, too, many times.

Don't support it, guys. Take your retirement dollars, put it into US companies, that respect shareholder rights.

That being said, our banks are very solid.
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Old fella
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by Old fella »

rookiepilot wrote:OF,

This is a broader, deeper, entrenched Canadian problem. Evidence? How many great, world class companies have we created, that successfully compete on the world stage? Banks don't count.

Then look at the US, or Germany, Japan, Korea.

We just don't facilitate private enterprise very well.
Best example I can muster are the Provincial owned/run liquor agencies (outside of Alberta). Retail/distribution of liquor should be done by private enterprise period and full stop. We would get better price due competition and better interprovincial selections.
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TheStig
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by TheStig »

rookiepilot wrote:OF,
How many great, world class companies have we created, that successfully compete on the world stage?
Just for you, because this thread gone off on a tangent I'll name one; Air Canada.

-Completes with companies around the globe, even your beloved Cathay.
-30,000 (mostly unionized) Employees coast to Coast and around the world of every race and religion and orientation.
-Almost 400 aircraft generating nearly 15 billion in revenue and has grown tremendously for the past 8 years, expanding globally to allow easier access to global markets for Canadian businesses.
-Continues to invest in product improvements.

I do agree with your last post though, Canadians as a whole don't champion global competitors, maybe because we don't realize they are? We like to bitch and complain (especially online) about homegrown corporations and their employees who work hard everyday to shed tired old stereotypes.

As far as NavCanada is concerned, the staff shortages leading to delays are totally unacceptable, but the controllers they employ are second to none.
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rookiepilot
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by rookiepilot »

TheStig wrote:
rookiepilot wrote:OF,
How many great, world class companies have we created, that successfully compete on the world stage?
Just for you, because this thread gone off on a tangent I'll name one; Air Canada.

-Completes with companies around the globe, even your beloved Cathay.
-30,000 (mostly unionized) Employees coast to Coast and around the world of every race and religion and orientation.
-Almost 400 aircraft generating nearly 15 billion in revenue and has grown tremendously for the past 8 years, expanding globally to allow easier access to global markets for Canadian businesses.
-Continues to invest in product improvements.

I do agree with your last post though, Canadians as a whole don't champion global competitors, maybe because we don't realize they are? We like to bitch and complain (especially online) about homegrown corporations and their employees who work hard everyday to shed tired old stereotypes.

As far as NavCanada is concerned, the staff shortages leading to delays are totally unacceptable, but the controllers they employ are second to none.
Uhmm, OK. Goes to my point.

AC is, to me, not unlike our cable and phone companies. Heavily protected and basically operating as a duopoly. No start up wants to take them on, (effectively) because AC or WJ will kill them off with predatory pricing. Perfectly legal in Canada. And of course deep pocketed foreign competition, isn't allowed. How hard did AC try to kill off Porter? That's not the mark of a "great" company. Let's not talk about federal aid over the years, either. Think we've hashed that out.

But hey, none of that is exclusive to AC. Thats Canada, the connected old boys club.

Name me one, non natural resource, dominant global competitor .....any industry ......dominant on the world stage, not in protected Canada. Nortel was closest, until they blew up.
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Braun
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by Braun »

I stopped replying to people in this thread because clearly it isn`t worth arguing over. You have your opinion and often they aren't fact based. I just wanted to add this. You guys say you would rather be vectored/hold than ground delays. Well I can 100% say that the airlines do not want this (maybe pilots do but not your management). It's been said time and time again that burning more fuel is never the best way to go. Also, these NOTAM's are not always due to staffing. It's easy to assume things about ATC, because at the end of the day all you hear is delays and our voice on the freq. Truth is there so many things that go on behind what the pilot can actually hear. Also, why is no one blaming airlines or local airport operators for delays? 90% of the time delays brought upon you guys has nothing to do with ATC but closed taxiways, runways, weather, airline scheduling etc...I don't mind taking the blame for mistakes I make but I have never went to work with the intent of delaying aircraft because I am too tired or I don't feel like working.

Also, people can say what they want about Nav Canada management, but they have really focused on training for the past 3 years and it is a main priority right now at Nav Canada. I can't remember the last time management was actually this easy to work with in finding solutions to resolve staffing issues.

The overtime protection is a myth, just stop.

I also don't know where you guys got the numbers where our CEO makes 3.1 million per year, but that's doubtful. I have seen the reports on management salaries and it is no where near that.
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kevenv
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by kevenv »

It appears my own googling skills are somewhat lacking, though to include the value of long term incentives and his pension plan as annual income is a stretch.
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Last edited by kevenv on Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rookiepilot
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Re: YVR Flow

Post by rookiepilot »

Braun wrote:I stopped replying to people in this thread because clearly it isn`t worth arguing over. You have your opinion and often they aren't fact based. I just wanted to add this. You guys say you would rather be vectored/hold than ground delays. Well I can 100% say that the airlines do not want this (maybe pilots do but not your management). It's been said time and time again that burning more fuel is never the best way to go. Also, these NOTAM's are not always due to staffing. It's easy to assume things about ATC, because at the end of the day all you hear is delays and our voice on the freq. Truth is there so many things that go on behind what the pilot can actually hear. Also, why is no one blaming airlines or local airport operators for delays? 90% of the time delays brought upon you guys has nothing to do with ATC but closed taxiways, runways, weather, airline scheduling etc...I don't mind taking the blame for mistakes I make but I have never went to work with the intent of delaying aircraft because I am too tired or I don't feel like working.

Also, people can say what they want about Nav Canada management, but they have really focused on training for the past 3 years and it is a main priority right now at Nav Canada. I can't remember the last time management was actually this easy to work with in finding solutions to resolve staffing issues.

The overtime protection is a myth, just stop.

I also don't know where you guys got the numbers where our CEO makes 3.1 million per year, but that's doubtful. I have seen the reports on management salaries and it is no where near that.
Page 79:

Certainly they aren't proud of it, burying within a giant report.
https://www.navcanada.ca/EN/about-us/Fi ... nal_EN.PDF
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