Why is flying so expensive?

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Squaretail
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by Squaretail »

How do we raise this to being priority 20 out of 10, let alone in the top 10?
Users of the airport have to sell it as more than just a playground for a bunch of pricks. They have to have more than the "it brings some burger eaters". For example: many small airports in this country that I know of, since in this country are few and far between, actually have users from a wider area. For example, at my home field there are airplane owners who live up to an hour away from the airport which means the airport is bringing people from a wider area which make use of the town's business. Since many small town businesses rely on a local demand any transient customers is a bonus.

Small airports also have to welcome any kind of business that can work symbiotically with the airport. Car rental lots, Restaurants, B&B, stuff that will attract use of the airport. It should be said that there is a substantial demand for commercial operators to use airports in this country, but as one, I would say that we avoid places because they're unsuitable. No fuel, no parking, no approaches, no terminal. Not to mention unfriendly locals who too often treat public airports like they're private ones.

I would also say it should be stressed that as part of an area's infrastructure, the airport frequently doesn't require as much resources compared to the money it generates. The runway and taxiways are only an extra mile or two of asphalt out of how many miles a county or MD may be already removing snow from? The same could be said for the grass. It strikes me as crazy that an airport might be looking at purchasing its own maintenance equipment when there's a whole yard of stuff already being paid for by the taxpayer to maintain their stuff. But that's the kicker, you have to get the taxpayer to look at the place like it benefits them. Pull at their heart strings, an airport is also a part of the community's emergency infrastructure. They make ideal staging areas for any disaster relief, and increase a community's ability to access medical services. Engage your airport with the local emergency services, there's nothing they like more than to find excuses to do "training" if it involves airplanes or helicopters. The more people you can get who think of the airport positively, the better. Get the public out to the airport. Give tours to kids and schools, get some sort of events going.

Lastly I would say that our aviation community in general needs to find out where politicians stand on aviation. They do this in the U.S. where AOPA regularly publishes lists of airplane friendly and un-friendly people in power. Maybe COPA could start doing this if they can get out that wet paper bag that's holding them back now.
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I'm not sure what's more depressing: That everyone has a price, or how low the price always is.
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Beefitarian
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by Beefitarian »

trey kule wrote: Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:20 pm Why is a hamburger eight bucks in so many places in YYC?

Eight Bucks!
Maybe if you want to eat at Chez Snooties


NO! Big Mac $5.99+ tax.
Not sure what that has to do with the cost of flying.
They are both too expensive. :smt070
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goldeneagle
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by goldeneagle »

Squaretail wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:28 am I would also say it should be stressed that as part of an area's infrastructure
Many years ago, back in '79 I remember this question coming up in my home town. I attended a council meeting where one of the discussion subjects was to rationalize the expense of maintaining the airport. I was a young commercial pilot working at said airport, and had my ducks lined up for the meeting. When it was my turn to talk, stood up, showed the council members a dozen fuel receipts taken over the last 2 months. Each and every one of those was for putting fuel into a provincial government operated air ambulance citation. Proceeded to explain, that airport is a critical component of our health care system, the primary means of getting folks to a trauma center on occasion.

That basically ended the discussion, motion to maintain airport funding was voted on and passed unanimously.
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trey kule
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by trey kule »

Unless it has changed....

Landing fee for GA aircraft at LAX....$0.00

.....just saying

Hawthorne...pretty much right under the approach path for LAX....$0.00
And no one is going to close their airport.. they are proud of it. Think of the Edmonton muni to see the difference in how local govts think of airports in Canada.

Canadian govts , at all levels are all about taxes ...and when they get to high, fees and surcharges. Because if you change the wording,, it is not a tax...

Aviation is viewed (incorrectly) as a place for the rich, and being rich in Canada is as unpolitically correct as being a white hetrosexual male.
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Squaretail
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by Squaretail »

Aviation is viewed (incorrectly) as a place for the rich,
Its not hard to get that impression sometimes though if you hang out at a lot of small airports. I wouldn't want tax dollars going to a place that I thought was only used by five pricks who wanted to be treated like princesses. I've been to flying club meetings where the guys present were trying to make a case that there was too much flying going on at "their" airport. The same kinds of guys are sometimes the ones who will make a case for more fees, at least fees for everyone else. One of the things that needs to be heavily countered I've found is some few, but loud voices, of these types. There's also the tendency to make champagne demands on a small airport with a beer budget, which can make the needs of the airport seem outrageous to the layman taxpayer.
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I'm not sure what's more depressing: That everyone has a price, or how low the price always is.
C.W.E.
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by C.W.E. »

Its not hard to get that impression sometimes though if you hang out at a lot of small airports. I wouldn't want tax dollars going to a place that I thought was only used by five pricks who wanted to be treated like princesses.
I must be lucky where I live because I have sat here and thought back through the years about the people at the airport and I could not think of even one that would fit the description of a prick.

What part of the country has a lot of small airports that is only used by pricks?
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Squaretail
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by Squaretail »

small airports that is only used by pricks?
I didn't say there were any small airports that were only used by pricks, only that to the outsider it may seem that way by encounters with some of the users. For example I remember one fellow who showed up to protest a young Eagles day under the guise that it was a "safety hazard" when in actuality I think he was just pissed that he didn't have the airport to himself that day. Another example would be a fellow I knew who felt the need to bitch to the town about how he felt the runway wasn't in suitable condition for his use since apparently it wasn't brushed dry to his specifications. Now I can imagine that it might have been difficult for some of the constituent tax payers to feel sorry for this fellow since their residential streets certainly don't get that kind of attention.

See what I'm getting at?

I do find it somewhat of a surprise that you never run into anyone you didn't get along with at an airport...
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I'm not sure what's more depressing: That everyone has a price, or how low the price always is.
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by PilotDAR »

I've been to flying club meetings where the guys present were trying to make a case that there was too much flying going on at "their" airport.
Well, those guys took the time to participate in the goings on of the airport, and that's something that many pilots and owners don't bother to do! Maybe they thought that the airport was "theirs" because they participated. The flying club where I learned to fly, owned the airport. So, yes, if things got too busy (which in my day, they certainly did from time to time), the airport would be closed to non members. 'Sounds fair to me, we were the members.

The aerodrome where I first kept my plane needed care, so I'd drive the tractor a few miles down the road to cut the grass, I'd drain the wet spots in the spring, and I helped to install the runway lights. I'd look after the place, and assure that all the planes were tied down and secure when a storm approached.

For the last 28 years, for my freedom and independence, I have owned my own aerodrome. I come and go as I please. I pay zero monthly tiedown fees for my planes! Though I had to buy the property, build the runway, build the hangar, bury in the lights and drainage, put up the windsock, cut the grass, and blow the snow. One day I'll do the math to see if my flying is expensive!
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by Beefitarian »

I have to admit though. It was too expensive back in the 1990s also and I just went and did it. It was worth every cent too.

So excellent point dar, never do the math.
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Kejidog
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by Kejidog »

Expensive?

Really? It has not been my experience at all, I am a new pilot in 2017. New plane owner in 2016 to train in.

Bought a solid older 172 took my PPL license training, and had an annual for well under $29,000 all in for 2017. I know losers who spent more on harleys and never put 250 hours on them and never left the tim hortons parking lot all year. Meanwhile i have visited 5 provinces with friends and family. And cheaper than a big overpowered bass boat.

It is a matter of priorities. Does someone need a diamond or a Cirrius with all the mod cons to train and locally fly.

Maybe in the age of high consumer debt, over priced mortgages and twice yearly family trips to the sunny south it is that the average person has no capacity to explore have a hobby like aviation because they are broke keeping up appearances. 30 years ago how many high end cars did you see parked outside of a slummy apartment builings?

But guess what. It has been an awesome experience for me my two kids and even my wife. And for the price of admission I would not trade it for anything.

I know maybe tomorrow I may have an expensive repair bill or replacement cost dropped on me but so far i am loving it
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by PilotDAR »

Well said Kegidog!

And, after all that fun in your 172, it's still yours to sell, perhaps for more than you paid for it. I thought that when I bought my 150 in 1987, maybe I'll sell it and buy up. I still own it, and two other planes too!
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Kejidog
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by Kejidog »

Yes. It was my goal to fly so fly i am doing.

I am sick of the guy in the $70,000 pickup truck grocery hauler with the $30,000 side by side sitting in it telling me i am some sort of 1% er.

But i live in a modest house drive a 8 year old car and spend my cash wisely. I have bought 4 sets of headsets a gps and a lot of survival gear second hand off kijiji.
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by rookiepilot »

Kejidog wrote: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:55 am Expensive?



Bought a solid older 172 took my PPL license training, and had an annual for well under $29,000 all in for 2017. I know losers who spent more on harleys and never put 250 hours on them and never left the tim hortons parking lot all year. Meanwhile i have visited 5 provinces with friends and family. And cheaper than a big overpowered bass boat.

It is a matter of priorities. Does someone need a diamond or a Cirrius with all the mod cons to train and locally fly.

Maybe in the age of high consumer debt, over priced mortgages and twice yearly family trips to the sunny south it is that the average person has no capacity to explore have a hobby like aviation because they are broke keeping up appearances. 30 years ago how many high end cars did you see parked outside of a slummy apartment builings?

But guess what. It has been an awesome experience for me my two kids and even my wife. And for the price of admission I would not trade it for anything.
Couldn't agree more.
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by JasonE »

Ditto.

My wife and I continue to drive older cars (2004 & 2010), while we enjoy the privilege of flying around Canada. Bought and trained in my own plane (partnership) & saved a bundle on rental during my PPL training. It's not really that expensive in the grand scheme of things these days. I'd much rather go flying in my 50+ year old plane than buy a new car (or Harley) any day!
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by digits_ »

JasonE wrote: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:30 pm Ditto.

My wife and I continue to drive older cars (2004 & 2010), while we enjoy the privilege of flying around Canada. Bought and trained in my own plane (partnership) & saved a bundle on rental during my PPL training. It's not really that expensive in the grand scheme of things these days. I'd much rather go flying in my 50+ year old plane than buy a new car (or Harley) any day!
While all those things are great and a great way to get into flying, it is impossible for every pilot to do this, as you'd run out of "cheap" 50 year old planes pretty quickly. The easiest way to compare the cost of flying, would be to compare the rental rates, as others have done before. There does seems to be a consensus that the cost of flying is increasing.

If you look at the prices of new airplanes, it is pretty expensive to get one of those, even if you drive old cars and live in small houses.

A cheaper alternative would be ultra lights, although some of those contraptions are not always the safest.
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Broken Slinky
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by Broken Slinky »

trey kule wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:24 am Unless it has changed....

Landing fee for GA aircraft at LAX....$0.00

.....just saying
That's true. The business model for US airports is a completely different monster than here in Canada. In the US, they feel they are a necessity for economic development and required infrastructure. Not sure if the Feds are still funding them at the same rate but at one time they were providing 90% of the monies to develop and upgrade airports. The community or developer just had to come up with 10% of the capital. When you don't have the capital expenses to recover, you can afford to charge lower fees, etc...

https://www.ustravel.org/sites/default/ ... _0_1_0.pdf
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by square »

Just do your own maintenance -- but don't @#$! it up
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Kejidog
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by Kejidog »

digits_ wrote: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:38 pm
JasonE wrote: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:30 pm Ditto.

My wife and I continue to drive older cars (2004 & 2010), while we enjoy the privilege of flying around Canada. Bought and trained in my own plane (partnership) & saved a bundle on rental during my PPL training. It's not really that expensive in the grand scheme of things these days. I'd much rather go flying in my 50+ year old plane than buy a new car (or Harley) any day!
While all those things are great and a great way to get into flying, it is impossible for every pilot to do this, as you'd run out of "cheap" 50 year old planes pretty quickly. The easiest way to compare the cost of flying, would be to compare the rental rates, as others have done before. There does seems to be a consensus that the cost of flying is increasing.

If you look at the prices of new airplanes, it is pretty expensive to get one of those, even if you drive old cars and live in small houses.

A cheaper alternative would be ultra lights, although some of those contraptions are not always the safest.

Well I still look for aircraft pretty regularly and see quite a few gems out there if you’re willing to wait and make a conditional offer pretty much immediately. I think just on kijiji this month there were 3 good 172’s sub $35,000. And a ton of 150/2’s. And that is without any particular effort on my part. Imagine if You actually went out of your way to find an aircraft.


As to the increases in rental rates. I have to ask has fuel costs not increased? Has your salary stayed the same? In my opinion it is all about priorities. It is like the guy with the 8 dollar starbucks coffee complaing about a 2 cent per liter increase in gas prices.

Flying is costly but not much more in comparison to annual resort vacations, golfing or boating. It is just priorities and what you want out of life.
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desben
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by desben »

A simple 4-hour trip in a rented C172 being $700, you don't have to do very many before you reach $10k/year for the hobby. It's expensive, and out of reach for the average Canadian worker with a mortgage and kids ($76k median family income). The original poster knows, this, it doesn't answer why.

Apparently, it wasn't always like this. On his fantastic blog, Philip Greenspun reports that in the 60's, a basic brand new Cherokee cost the same as the median family income. Imagine buying a brand new Cherokee for $76k today! No, instead, a basic certified trainer aircraft now costs more than $300k. So why? The comments on his posts are worth a read. https://blogs.harvard.edu/philg/2007/12 ... ly-income/
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Kejidog
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Re: Why is flying so expensive?

Post by Kejidog »

Yes and I am sure you could rent a plane for $30 an hour. Using an inflation calculator available online from1965 dollars to today’s works out to be $237, $16,000 worrks out to $126,500 so it is all relative. And you say that 10 grad a year is out of the average family income? Ever price a week vacation for a family of four to an all inclusive plus airfare?. People regularly do that annually and sometimes Twice a year.


As I said in an earlier post buying a good solid aircraft for sub $30,000 is still the best deal around. Does anyone learning how to fly need a sr22? Or as a ppl holder do you need a ifr glass panel. No. Lower your expectations and just go flying for the sake of it. It is not expensive for the average person. My guess to the lack of people entering the flying for fun market is that it is pure laziness and a culture of instant gratification. As our groper in command is known to say “hard things are hard”
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