Legal Marijuana

[Meatservo]

A lot of people say that "alcohol is a drug that is even more dangerous than cannabis". I object to this as a rhetorical point because it depends on what you mean by "dangerous".

For one thing, saying "weed" is more like saying "beer". If we're going to compare drugs, let's compare "alcohol" with "THC".

It's certainly more poisonous, as in you can easily drink enough that it will kill you, which might not be the case for THC.

It's possibly more habit-forming- however that is also contextual. No-one starts using THC because it tastes great with a steak or because it's refreshing served cold on a hot day. Marijuana smokers have less in common with a person having a glass of wine with dinner or having a glass of scotch or stout in their favourite chair and more in common with a teenager drinking beer out of a funnel. For a lot of people, alcohol dependence can creep up on them gradually as a result of indulging in the social aspect of drinking. There is only one reason anyone ever consumes THC... for its ability to @#$! you up.

Alcohol has been brewed and consumed by humans for so long that I suspect our tolerance of it is a borderline evolutionary phenomenon. It's well known that brewing alcoholic beverages has been an effective way of guarding against waterborne disease. We are very aware of the effects of alcohol on our bodies. We know very well how quickly it leaves our bodies. We know very well the effect it has on our bodies. We know that you have to drink a great deal of it, over and over, for a very long time, in order for it to permanently damage our brains.

We don't know any of those things about THC.

I agree that alcohol is a destructive force in many peoples' lives. I agree that THC is enjoyed by many people. But "dangerous"? We don't know much about it. Some people are addicted to it. I think it causes an effect on the brains of users that is more insidious and harder to define, and possibly more permanent, than the damage caused by alcohol abuse.

I stand by my opinion that more research is needed before we accept all the hype, and dismiss all the misgivings about this drug.

[cncpc]

A lot of people say that "alcohol is a drug that is even more dangerous than cannabis". I object to this as a rhetorical point because it depends on what you mean by "dangerous".

For one thing, saying "weed" is more like saying "beer". If we're going to compare drugs, let's compare "alcohol" with "THC".

It's certainly more poisonous, as in you can easily drink enough that it will kill you, which might not be the case for THC.

It's possibly more habit-forming- however that is also contextual. No-one starts using THC because it tastes great with a steak or because it's refreshing served cold on a hot day. Marijuana smokers have less in common with a person having a glass of wine with dinner or having a glass of scotch or stout in their favourite chair and more in common with a teenager drinking beer out of a funnel. For a lot of people, alcohol dependence can creep up on them gradually as a result of indulging in the social aspect of drinking. There is only one reason anyone ever consumes THC... for its ability to @#$! you up.

Alcohol has been brewed and consumed by humans for so long that I suspect our tolerance of it is a borderline evolutionary phenomenon. It's well known that brewing alcoholic beverages has been an effective way of guarding against waterborne disease. We are very aware of the effects of alcohol on our bodies. We know very well how quickly it leaves our bodies. We know very well the effect it has on our bodies. We know that you have to drink a great deal of it, over and over, for a very long time, in order for it to permanently damage our brains.

We don't know any of those things about THC.

I agree that alcohol is a destructive force in many peoples' lives. I agree that THC is enjoyed by many people. But "dangerous"? We don't know much about it. Some people are addicted to it. I think it causes an effect on the brains of users that is more insidious and harder to define, and possibly more permanent, than the damage caused by alcohol abuse.

I stand by my opinion that more research is needed before we accept all the hype, and dismiss all the misgivings about this drug.

That is quite a reasonable perspective.

[skybluetrek]

What should be addressed is the real elephant in the room. The incompatibility between this profession and any drug is pretty obvious. What the real debate is about however: Is smoking pot moral? Is recreational marijuana morally comparable to alcohol?

I don't think we're particulary worried about the substance called THC, there are plenty of other, stronger and legal, substances out there and we're not debating about it. The THC itself should not be the issue when there seems to be a clear consensus around the following: (1) Cannabis is not as addictive as alcohol, tobacco or certainly “harder” drugs like cocaine and heroin; (2) Marijuana is much less physically debilitating than “harder” drugs, as well as many legally-prescribed synthetic painkillers; (3) Deaths from a marijuana overdose are extraordinarily rare; and (4) There’s a significant and growing amount of evidence that cannabis helps relieve symptoms of many serious medical conditions — including cancer, glaucoma, and AIDS — and can be a better alternative to narcotic painkillers.

The issue here is our f#$& up concept of morality and dignity. Drinking 1 to 3 glasses of wine or 3 beers = Another normal guy; Gets a bit drunk here and there = Another normal guy; Casual marijuana use = Stoner, Abuse, Adict, hippie, etc.
I used alcochol but here's a random top 10 addictions list: http://guardianlv.com/2014/07/sexual-ad ... -the-year/
How many of them could influence the mental and phisical health of a pilot? How many of them result in a moral judment of the person? How come we accept a wrong concept of moderation and abuse for other substances or habits?

Using marijuana recreationally probably isn't a beneficial behavior for most people, but it's not inherently different than other substances, such as alcohol. Our focus shouldn’t be on the private morality of individuals who choose to smoke pot.

[cncpc]

What should be addressed is the real elephant in the room. The incompatibility between this profession and any drug is pretty obvious. What the real debate is about however: Is smoking pot moral? Is recreational marijuana morally comparable to alcohol?

I don't think we're particulary worried about the substance called THC, there are plenty of other, stronger and legal, substances out there and we're not debating about it. The THC itself should not be the issue when there seems to be a clear consensus around the following: (1) Cannabis is not as addictive as alcohol, tobacco or certainly “harder” drugs like cocaine and heroin; (2) Marijuana is much less physically debilitating than “harder” drugs, as well as many legally-prescribed synthetic painkillers; (3) Deaths from a marijuana overdose are extraordinarily rare; and (4) There’s a significant and growing amount of evidence that cannabis helps relieve symptoms of many serious medical conditions — including cancer, glaucoma, and AIDS — and can be a better alternative to narcotic painkillers.

The issue here is our f#$& up concept of morality and dignity. Drinking 1 to 3 glasses of wine or 3 beers = Another normal guy; Gets a bit drunk here and there = Another normal guy; Casual marijuana use = Stoner, Abuse, Adict, hippie, etc.
I used alcochol but here's a random top 10 addictions list: http://guardianlv.com/2014/07/sexual-ad ... -the-year/
How many of them could influence the mental and phisical health of a pilot? How many of them result in a moral judment of the person? How come we accept a wrong concept of moderation and abuse for other substances or habits?

Using marijuana recreationally probably isn't a beneficial behavior for most people, but it's not inherently different than other substances, such as alcohol. Our focus shouldn’t be on the private morality of individuals who choose to smoke pot.

Again, well said.

My choice about pot is to never smoke it in any professional flying phase of my life. Or private flying. I have smoked pot when my medical had lapsed and I had no imminent intention of renewing it. When I did have that intention, I stopped smoking at least a couple of months before flying again, and never smoked in any flying period.

That is a choice. It is not mandated by aviation law. All that is mandated by aviation law is that a pilot not be under the influence of alcohol or a drug when flying, and the stipulation that when using a drug that if declared to a CAME would result in medical suspension, the pilot should not thereafter exercise the privilege of his or her license until that issue is resolved. The fact that possession of pot, necessary to smoke it, is against the law also influences my decision. My decision will not change when it is legal.

Although there seems to be a standard about when one is no longer under the influence of alcohol, it's not really that clear with pot. Sure, 24 hours seems reasonable, but it's not so clear when you start to consider chronic and excessive use. So in some sense I agree with the Reefer Madness crowd here as to what should happen, just not the promoting of the same old lies about pot. As an example, I'm sure Just . is a sound man and a very good pilot, but he doesn't know his ass from page 4 as far as pot goes, but he blathers on as if he did. But that's Just ..

[rookiepilot]

What should be addressed is the real elephant in the room. The incompatibility between this profession and any drug is pretty obvious. What the real debate is about however: Is smoking pot moral? Is recreational marijuana morally comparable to alcohol?

I don't think we're particulary worried about the substance called THC, there are plenty of other, stronger and legal, substances out there and we're not debating about it. The THC itself should not be the issue when there seems to be a clear consensus around the following: (1) Cannabis is not as addictive as alcohol, tobacco or certainly “harder” drugs like cocaine and heroin; (2) Marijuana is much less physically debilitating than “harder” drugs, as well as many legally-prescribed synthetic painkillers; (3) Deaths from a marijuana overdose are extraordinarily rare; and (4) There’s a significant and growing amount of evidence that cannabis helps relieve symptoms of many serious medical conditions — including cancer, glaucoma, and AIDS — and can be a better alternative to narcotic painkillers.

The issue here is our f#$& up concept of morality and dignity. Drinking 1 to 3 glasses of wine or 3 beers = Another normal guy; Gets a bit drunk here and there = Another normal guy; Casual marijuana use = Stoner, Abuse, Adict, hippie, etc.
I used alcochol but here's a random top 10 addictions list: http://guardianlv.com/2014/07/sexual-ad ... -the-year/
How many of them could influence the mental and phisical health of a pilot? How many of them result in a moral judment of the person? How come we accept a wrong concept of moderation and abuse for other substances or habits?

Using marijuana recreationally probably isn't a beneficial behavior for most people, but it's not inherently different than other substances, such as alcohol. Our focus shouldn’t be on the private morality of individuals who choose to smoke pot.

Generally agree. My main concern is safety is preserved.

Perhaps I'm troubled that once again our governments are focused on meeting their budget needs through different avenues to public health, this only being one example, that they then will promote to our kids. Gambling being a prominent example, leaving other organizations to try to help pick up the lives of destroyed families due to addiction.

Governments are knee deep then ....in promoting addictions. Something to be proud of, Canada. Is this all our leadership has got?

[Sidebar]

Governments are knee deep then ....in promoting addictions. Something to be proud of, Canada. Is this all our leadership has got?

This is the best thought I've seen in this thread.

There's lots of comments here about research on the combination of marijuana and aviation. Here's two research reports from Australia.

From the conclusions of the first one: "The results of this study show that the prevalence of drug and alcohol accidents and incidents is very low in Australian civil aviation. However, where alcohol and drugs are involved, there is a very high chance of an accident, especially a fatal one."

[rookiepilot]

"The bill creates a provincial agency that will distribute and retail pot through storefronts and online. It also creates stiff fines that could top $1 million against companies and people who sell marijuana in defiance of the government monopoly."


"For Ontario's treasury, total control over retailing recreational pot is likely to be far more lucrative than taxation. However, Sousa has yet to say how much profit he expects the province's cannabis agency will provide."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/o ... -1.4444673

Easy to see true motivations....

[Cat Driver]

I would like to respond to this comment by cncpc.

As an example, I'm sure Just . is a sound man and a very good pilot, but he doesn't know his ass from page 4 as far as pot goes, but he blathers on as if he did. But that's Just ..

My area of expertise is not illegal drugs however I do get some of my information from true experts.

As to the dangers of marijuana most of my information came from my T.C. approved Doctor who did my medicals for around thirty years.

He was not only my Doctor but a partner in one of my flying training / charter business for many years.

His background included being involved in the study of drugs and their affect on pilots.

His opinion on marijuana was it was more dangerous for a pilot to use than alcohol due to its longer term build up in the body, and its long term affect on the brain.

Therefore in my own personal opinion the use of marijuana by a pilot who fly's for a living is it can be more dangerous than using alcohol so why risk it.

[MedicineBuddha]

Wow! Looks like the witch hunt has begun!

First off I don’t know all there is to know on this subject and by no means am I an expert. Nor am I a user..

However, here is what I do know. A had a friend who was a soldier who went overseas. This person had been employed in their profession for 20 years and had never used marijuana. This individual was successful and professional in every sense of the word and was highly decorated. They fought for our freedom and saw some stuff that would likely send the lot of us off the deep end. In other words, the person did the governments dirty work so that the rest of us can enjoy their beers after work.

After the individual came home from a several tour deployment they became very ineffective in their career and their family life. ( my friend would be later diagnosed with severe PTSD) The person tried all opioids and almost everything to no avail.. Until they tried marijuana. Pot literally turned their life around and let them go through counseling and patch their life together. ( it also ended an alcohol addition)

I also know of some people who use pot recreationally/ medically in emergency services ..

There is also multiple strains of marijuana.

CBD: contains little or no psychoactive THC in some cases at all! It has been used to treat seizures, anxiety and PTSD.

Indica : calming / sleeping strain

Sativa : provides energy etc

Hybrid: various applications

We haven’t even discussed medical benefits for certain conditions..

Marijuana can be taken :

As a tincture
Oil infusion
CBD pill form

Etc .. it’s not just smoked..

What if, hypothetically, a pilot witnesses a horrific event or is going through an extreme family event? Would you say this pilot is not entitled / legally entitled to take themselves offline or seek medical help. Are they no longer a professional? Oh wait, mental illness / depression never happens to pilots!

The effects of a hangover are far worse than a few tokes or whatever!

Before everyone starts finger pointing .... I’m about as straight laced as they come. I won’t even drink on a pairing and I do not drink at all. I don’t like alcohol and never likely will. I get my relaxation, rush, or whatever from sports which I partake in..

Am I now allowed to look at all of you who do have the odd drink with disdain? I don’t think so..

People shouldn’t show up to work: excessively stressed, hungover, sick, injured, high or any combination. You are impaired! Period.

If you want to use marijuana recreationally or alcohol in your off hours... fine. Don’t bring it to work and be responsible.

However, I don’t tend to judge people who use it for legitimate medical reasons or who enjoy a joint now and again. It’s not my place..


Fair?

[AirFrame]

If someone told me they could detect beer six weeks after you had a few, and there was zero tolerance for beer, I guess I would have to give that a long hard think.

I would be very surprised if you couldn't detect it a month after it was consumed. Detect, mind you, not "show impairment". Heck, you can visually detect a habitual beer-drinking pilot anytime... Look at his belly.

Tests will be devised eventually that can determine what levels of impairment "equate" to alcohol. When they are, pot will be no different, except for the fact the body doesn't develop an addiction to it like it can for alcohol.

[Cat Driver]

I am asking this question because I am not sure of the true answer.

If a pilot uses marijuana for a couple of days during off time and gets called to fly the next day and has an accident that is fatal to both the pilot and several other people and the autopsy shows positive for marijuana what would be the outcome?

[thirdtimecharm]

Let me take the other side just for fun. Say I'm a pilot, after this is legal, I get busted on a drug test, reveals I used - smoked -- I dunno even the terms -- 2 weeks ago. I get fired by the company. I immediately sue the company, on the basis they can't prove impairment, so its discriminatory. It's a firing without cause. I get the human rights commission on my side, maybe even the union.

This is the can of worms this has opened. This will happen.

The test proves impairment. Unless you argue you never used and the test was wrong. If you admit you used even if it was a week ago then you are “impaired”. Since we can’t measure imparement the way we do alcohol, you are basically considered impaired unless you pass a test. I don’t think a union will back up anyone found testing positive. Nor will any colleagues support you. I think this will be taken seriously and the only way out is if you test positive somehow but really never used and somehow we have an element of error in the testing.

Edit: it’s not discriminatory. Is it discrimination to pull a pilot off line and fire them for being under the influence of alcohol? Weed will be no different. Sure you may not feel under influence a week after smoking a joint however if it’s in your system then you are considered under the influence. Seems black and white to me.

The test does not prove impairment. It proves consumption. That could be a month or more before the test.

If pot is legal, unions certainly will back up people fired just for testing positive. I'd hate to think what else seems black and white to you.

I work on this issue in a non-aviation context these days. The tests don't prove impairment but rather give probable cause for demanding a blood test which can determine the "probable" level of impairment. Currently there isn't a certified road-side test in Canada and there might not be one prior to legalization. There are other ways to measure impairment from marijuana but it is a fairly extensive training program for the officer who then administers cognitive tests like is done with alcohol impairment.

When it comes to driving, the presence of marijuana in your system will not be a chargeable offence on its own. The measure is impairment. The most likely impact will be for those combining marijuana and alcohol, where you will be considered impaired at a level lower than .08 blood alcohol because combined, the impacts are worse.

When it comes to aviation, haven't there been a couple of TSB reports recently that noted that there were drugs in the system of the pilot but the TSB didn't think that there was impairment?

[cncpc]

The test proves impairment. Unless you argue you never used and the test was wrong. If you admit you used even if it was a week ago then you are “impaired”. Since we can’t measure imparement the way we do alcohol, you are basically considered impaired unless you pass a test. I don’t think a union will back up anyone found testing positive. Nor will any colleagues support you. I think this will be taken seriously and the only way out is if you test positive somehow but really never used and somehow we have an element of error in the testing.

Edit: it’s not discriminatory. Is it discrimination to pull a pilot off line and fire them for being under the influence of alcohol? Weed will be no different. Sure you may not feel under influence a week after smoking a joint however if it’s in your system then you are considered under the influence. Seems black and white to me.

The test does not prove impairment. It proves consumption. That could be a month or more before the test.

If pot is legal, unions certainly will back up people fired just for testing positive. I'd hate to think what else seems black and white to you.

I work on this issue in a non-aviation context these days. The tests don't prove impairment but rather give probable cause for demanding a blood test which can determine the "probable" level of impairment. Currently there isn't a certified road-side test in Canada and there might not be one prior to legalization. There are other ways to measure impairment from marijuana but it is a fairly extensive training program for the officer who then administers cognitive tests like is done with alcohol impairment.

When it comes to driving, the presence of marijuana in your system will not be a chargeable offence on its own. The measure is impairment. The most likely impact will be for those combining marijuana and alcohol, where you will be considered impaired at a level lower than .08 blood alcohol because combined, the impacts are worse.

When it comes to aviation, haven't there been a couple of TSB reports recently that noted that there were drugs in the system of the pilot but the TSB didn't think that there was impairment?

It's amazing how actually knowing what is going on and being able to state facts makes for a great post.

I'm not sure the TSB didn't think there was impairment. I think it was more along the lines that the readings they had, which were post mortem blood plasma if I remember, did not prove that the pilot was impaired at the time. No question the reading was very high, but hundreds of pilots have flown into trees who had no marijuana in their blood at all.

[cncpc]

I am asking this question because I am not sure of the true answer.

If a pilot uses marijuana for a couple of days during off time and gets called to fly the next day and has an accident that is fatal to both the pilot and several other people and the autopsy shows positive for marijuana what would be the outcome?

An autopsy report.

[cncpc]

Wow! Looks like the witch hunt has begun!

First off I don’t know all there is to know on this subject and by no means am I an expert. Nor am I a user..

However, here is what I do know. A had a friend who was a soldier who went overseas. This person had been employed in their profession for 20 years and had never used marijuana. This individual was successful and professional in every sense of the word and was highly decorated. They fought for our freedom and saw some stuff that would likely send the lot of us off the deep end. In other words, the person did the governments dirty work so that the rest of us can enjoy their beers after work.

After the individual came home from a several tour deployment they became very ineffective in their career and their family life. ( my friend would be later diagnosed with severe PTSD) The person tried all opioids and almost everything to no avail.. Until they tried marijuana. Pot literally turned their life around and let them go through counseling and patch their life together. ( it also ended an alcohol addition)

I also know of some people who use pot recreationally/ medically in emergency services ..

There is also multiple strains of marijuana.

CBD: contains little or no psychoactive THC in some cases at all! It has been used to treat seizures, anxiety and PTSD.

Indica : calming / sleeping strain

Sativa : provides energy etc

Hybrid: various applications

We haven’t even discussed medical benefits for certain conditions..

Marijuana can be taken :

As a tincture
Oil infusion
CBD pill form

Etc .. it’s not just smoked..

What if, hypothetically, a pilot witnesses a horrific event or is going through an extreme family event? Would you say this pilot is not entitled / legally entitled to take themselves offline or seek medical help. Are they no longer a professional? Oh wait, mental illness / depression never happens to pilots!

The effects of a hangover are far worse than a few tokes or whatever!

Before everyone starts finger pointing .... I’m about as straight laced as they come. I won’t even drink on a pairing and I do not drink at all. I don’t like alcohol and never likely will. I get my relaxation, rush, or whatever from sports which I partake in..

Am I now allowed to look at all of you who do have the odd drink with disdain? I don’t think so..

People shouldn’t show up to work: excessively stressed, hungover, sick, injured, high or any combination. You are impaired! Period.

If you want to use marijuana recreationally or alcohol in your off hours... fine. Don’t bring it to work and be responsible.

However, I don’t tend to judge people who use it for legitimate medical reasons or who enjoy a joint now and again. It’s not my place..


Fair?

A short time ago, I was tasked with preparing the Workplace Impairment Policy manual for my employer. As part of that, I did pose a question to the regional medical guy at TC. I asked about prescriptions for pot. His answer was simple "Pilots are required to be clear headed when they operate aircraft."

[confusedalot]

Not surprised by the CAME non answer, I don't think anybody knows for sure. and nobody is willing to put their pants on.

I seem to remember medical staff indicating that, even after the 8 hour TC rule, the ''must be fit to fly'' TC rule, and the typical 12 hour alcohol limit used by many operators, that, alcohol effects could still be felt after 48 hours?? Sounds like a bit of a stretch I know, but I do remember reading it.

So as far as THC/marijuana use is concerned, anyone know about how long the stuff actually remains in your system, or how long the impairment effects last?

Honest question motivated by curiosity.

Same old disclaimer, I don't use the stuff. My pants are on

[montado]

I am asking this question because I am not sure of the true answer.

If a pilot uses marijuana for a couple of days during off time and gets called to fly the next day and has an accident that is fatal to both the pilot and several other people and the autopsy shows positive for marijuana what would be the outcome?

Tindi caravan report is out. Personally I don’t think it has much bearing at all in the accident. I don’t think an autopsy would be able to determine impairment. Anyways I feel this can be a sensitive topic for anyone who knows him. But this shows that’s no matter how you stand, the day you are involved in an accident you will be judged by all angles.

[pilotidentity]

I would find it very hard to believe that someone that is a professional pilot doesn't know their own body and mind well enough to tell if they are impaired whether it be from legal drugs such as alcohol and soon to be THC or from fatigue or stress. Transport Canada knows this and that is why they will always answer "don't fly impaired".

[Meatservo]

Tests will be devised eventually that can determine what levels of impairment "equate" to alcohol. When they are, pot will be no different, except for the fact the body doesn't develop an addiction to it like it can for alcohol.

I will be very happy when that is the case, because that is the minimum due diligence that would be required by a reasonable person before condoning the use of a psychoactive substance by people actively invloved in such a public-safety-critical act as flying aeroplanes.

However, I don't believe that you are using the word "fact" correctly, because research and anecdotal evidence (which is ever the darling of the cannabis advocates) indicate that cannabis, like all compounds that artificially link with cannabinoid receptors in our brains, is at least moderately addictive. There are many well-documented medical consequences of marijuana withdrawal.

I generally support the legalization of recreational cannabis. However, it is very important for cannabis advocate to avoid alienating potential supporters by disseminating false facts. People who state that marijuana is non-addictive, or that it cures cancer, or that the smoke is harmless, do more harm than good to their cause- because it's reasonable to dismiss any claim made by someone who regularly makes false claims. Stick to the facts. The facts alone will carry your purpose.

[AirFrame]

However, I don't believe that you are using the word "fact" correctly, because research and anecdotal evidence (which is ever the darling of the cannabis advocates) indicate that cannabis, like all compounds that artificially link with cannabinoid receptors in our brains, is at least moderately addictive. There are many well-documented medical consequences of marijuana withdrawal.

That's a fair point. However, "addiction" implies that the mere presence is harmful, when you can just as easily be addicted to coffee... And that isn't a disqualifying condition for flight.

There's also research showing that how addicted you are is linked to how heavy a user you are. In practise, it's probably unlikely that a chain-smoking pot user would get very far in aviation, and even less likely that they would get into the left seat of an airliner... you can't just walk outside the building and have a toke like you could have a nicotine cigarette. It's probably more likely that a pilot may want to have a smoke or two on their weekend while off-duty, and that low level of usage is extremely unlikely to cause anything resembling addiction.