De icing

[sunk]

Just curious as to what the smaller airlines are using in northern Saskatchewan, Manitoba and else where to de ice. I see calm air de ice at their remote airports stations whenever there is a trace of ice. Fast air comes and go's with all sorts of ice on the wings/ tail. Perimeter is the same, lots of ice on the aircraft and they still depart.

[AWOS]

Ugh. Given recent events, I see where this is going.

Most smaller operators carry small canisters of type 4.

I've worked in Manitoba for a while and I can't say I've ever seen anyone take of with a dangerous amount of ice. Expecting a King Air or a Metro to waste what little fluid they have available to them on a medevac in the middle of the night on a small amount of impact ice is completely unreasonable. I hope that's not what you mean when you say "all kinds of ice".

[montado]

Ugh. Given recent events, I see where this is going.

Most smaller operators carry small canisters of type 4.

Maybe if we saw the price of deicing fluid go down, we'd see a lot more deicing going on but you cant expect smaller operators to spray when there is a small amount of impact ice on the leading edge. I really hope that's not what you mean when you say "lots of ice".

We can’t expect small operators to operate legally because the cost of doing business? Am I reading this right? Is this the official word from transport? When the price of jet-A goes up can we expect Westjet to really pay for that or should they just add water to the fuel to stay competitive with Air Canada?

So tell me why the manufacturer of deice fluids should not be paid what it costs to make deice fluid again? Very interesting... I see where this is going too!

[PostmasterGeneral]

I hardly think that’s what he’s saying. If it’s -30 with no active precip and all you’ve got is a bit of impact ice adhering to the boots, don’t waste the fluid you have with you. You may really need it at your next station stop if it’s snowing for example.

[HansDietrich]

On a side note, I've seen Wasaya's Dash 8 start up and take off without de-icing, when us, Porter, etc were all de-icing... What can I say? Maybe they just took it out of the hangar, or contamination did not hit their Dash 8...

[AWOS]

I hardly think that’s what he’s saying. If it’s -30 with no active precip and all you’ve got is a bit of impact ice adhering to the boots, don’t waste the fluid you have with you. You may really need it at your next station stop if it’s snowing for example.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean.

[telex]

Ugh. Given recent events, I see where this is going.

Most smaller operators carry small canisters of type 4.

I've worked in Manitoba for a while and I can't say I've ever seen anyone take of with a dangerous amount of ice. Expecting a King Air or a Metro to waste what little fluid they have available to them on a medevac in the middle of the night on a small amount of impact ice is completely unreasonable. I hope that's not what you mean when you say "all kinds of ice".

Do yourself a favour and understand CLEAN AIRCRAFT CONCEPT.

[montado]

We’ll it does not really help much when you decide to completely edit your post.

Anyways word of advice for you aspiring 703 drivers out there just getting into the Industry. If you ever plan to apply to Air Canada, Westjet, Jazz, Encore, Sky, Porter etc, in your interview you may be asked to tell about a time when... now take a deep breath, don’t stress out, we are just having conversation...

But don’t dare come up with a story that involves an attitude that you could not give a @#$! about the regulations. “Well I don’t deice because it costs to much” “I fly overweight because I want more fuel”. I am willing to bet none of these airlines will hire you. Understood SOPs are broken, and the only good excuses was an honest mistake or a circumstance you can justify.

Saying you fly around the north and you don’t need a clean wing, or how you define a clean wing is not the same as the CARs will not fly. Unbelievable someone on here would post that it’s ok to take off with some ice, because your next stop you might have more ice and then maybe you will piss pack that wing. I’m no modle of perfection but I want that to be clear to those up and coming that read these forums that the airlines won’t want you if you have that attitude. So make your choices!

[Lotro]

Is there anyone on here who could explain in plain language the conditions under which planes de-ice?

I watch them all day and I have no idea what makes them decide to de-ice or not. I gather there are SOPs, but I've seen two airplanes depart within 5 minutes of each other, one painted green the other glycol-free. If it's -20 and snowing do you need it? What about if there's a PIREP for icing in the climb?

I'm not interested in questioning pilots/operators SOPs, just trying to understand what is and isn't reasonable.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

The clean aircraft concept requires that there is no contamination (snow, ice, frost) ADHERING to the critical surfaces of an airplane (wing, tail, top of fuselage on an airplane with rear mounted engines)
Typically contamination is cleaned off with mechanical means (broom etc) or by heated hangar, or by using Type 1 DEICE fluid. If precipitation is occurring that is adhering to the aircraft, an ANTI-ICING FLUID (Type 4 for example) is applied to prevent that contamination from adhering.
This is ground icing. If there is a pirep for icing in the climb, that is airborne icing which requires deicing/anti icing equipment on the plane such as inflatable boots which break the ice off as they inflate, weeping surfaces that prevent ice buildup with a fluid that coats the leading edges and or props (while airborne) or heated surfaces that prevent ice buildup.
Some aircraft are permitted to takeoff with ice adhering to the bottom of the wings but this would be specifically explained in the aircraft flight manual...typically this ice/frost build up would occur when a jet flies high for a long time and the wing gets cold soaked causing any humidity to freeze on the bottom of the wing after landing.

Bottom line, if you have contamination adhering to the critical aircraft surfaces it must be removed prior to takeoff. You must also prevent futher contamination from adhering before takeoff.
If your airplane is not certified for icing, you must avoid areas of known (pirep) or forcast icing.

[Gannet167]

Because this:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWPFs4AP9v0[/youtube]

[angry inch]

These interactive video tutorials can be useful.


https://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/