Night Engine Failure Question

[TC Guy]

All this being said, I have to say I really enjoy flying at night, including on X-countries, assuming they are properly planned. It may be risky, but so is skydiving, and many other activities that we do. Aviation is always about managing the risk, and this is no exception.

I can get behind this statement.

I believe that night experience on the CPL license is similar to the instrument flight time. It is there to give you the experience should you get yourself into a bad situation-- how to get out (in this case, fly to the nearest airport and land). Quite applicable to single engine VFR operations (because people can and will mess up).

So- would it be fair to say that the dual cross-country requirement is good experience, and that the benefits outweigh the risks, provided the route flown is over an area where there are suitable airports close by (and definitly not in mountainous areas or over open water)?

I have always beleived that the night experience was a great time to teach the proper use of radio nav aids (during the dual cross-country portion) due to the fact it was easy for an inexperienced pilot to get quite lost.

Summary:

-Solo circuits only
-Dual circuits with some dual cross-country requirement for familiarization

(from reading between the lines of what has been said here)

Darn near the requirements for the night rating (and night portion of the CPL) now. Any CFI or flight instructor could/should place limitations on their students in order to limit any additional risk. I don't believe anyone here wants more limiting legislation when common sense would do a better job.

In my region, the last two accident at night were due to students ducking under on short final and colliding with objects on the ground PRIOR to the runway (so Nav Canada installed PAPI's at both locations to reduce the risk of this happening again).

Side note: IF THE RUNWAY YOU ARE LANDING ON AT NIGHT IS EQUIPPED WITH A PAPI SYSTEM, BE SURE YOUR STUDENTS USE IT!
(That is real world stuff there! Teach it!)

Agree? Disagree?

-Guy

[Right Seat Captain]

Side note: IF THE RUNWAY YOU ARE LANDING ON AT NIGHT IS EQUIPPED WITH A PAPI SYSTEM, BE SURE YOUR STUDENTS USE IT!
(That is real world stuff there! Teach it!)

Although I do agree that if available it should be used, when in training, we typically go to the Gatineau Airport to do night circuits due to the longer runway at night than Rockcliffe, and for noise abaitment. I often ask the FSS to turn off the VASIS there, so that the student can get used to checking his/her altimeter while on the approach. If only the VASIS/PAPI lights are used during training, one builds a dependancy on it.

[TC Guy]

Side note: IF THE RUNWAY YOU ARE LANDING ON AT NIGHT IS EQUIPPED WITH A PAPI SYSTEM, BE SURE YOUR STUDENTS USE IT!
(That is real world stuff there! Teach it!)

Although I do agree that if available it should be used, when in training, we typically go to the Gatineau Airport to do night circuits due to the longer runway at night than Rockcliffe, and for noise abaitment. I often ask the FSS to turn off the VASIS there, so that the student can get used to checking his/her altimeter while on the approach. If only the VASIS/PAPI lights are used during training, one builds a dependancy on it.

Well, yes, I agree that students should be exposed to a wide variety of experiences and scearios... at night, they should follow the approach path indicating system.

Kind of like not ducking under the glidepath on an ILS once you become visual at minimums.

If you don't want them to use it, have the FSS/etc. turn it off. To teach them it is all right to have all reds is... not good.

-Guy

[fredoqc]

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[TC Guy]

Funny to read your post...

Just cary a motorcycle full face helmet on right side seat... if anythings goes bad put it on...And do whatever your'e trained for... i.e. 121.5 mayday etc...

Everyone knows it is head injury who kill most

Don't bother about what people say, your ass worth the 125$ canadian tire helmet.

-Fred

Sorry, Fred... call me old... even a bit thick... but I do not understand your point.

If you could explain it to me, it would be appreciated.

-Guy

[mellow_pilot]

I was thinking about this the other day... and here's some food for thought.

WWII, Pacific Theatre, Night Carrier ops. European Theatre, BF 109 and Fw 190 night fighters. African Theatre, Night ops in the Sahara.

You think it's dangerous today!

[fredoqc]

Sorry, Fred... call me old... even a bit thick... but I do not understand your point.

If you could explain it to me, it would be appreciated.

-Guy

Guy

We're talking of the crash survivability of a single engine night VFR training in a 172, over rocks and trees... do I have to add more?

Some like Cat say it is crazy to do training in a 172 at night, and we're trying to discuss on how to land the plane on the event of a engine failure.

Maybe you're laughing about my statement but i'm serious. SE night VFR training is done every night in canada, and so far, nothing will change this.

If you sitting in a 172 at 3000' over trees and rocks, what are you going to do ? Fly the airplane, trim, try to change tank etc... then if you must do an emergency landing here are the two case scenario:

the 172 stall at 53 MPH, you land in 12" thick trees at 60 mph just above stall:

Will you survive when your head will smash the dashboard during deceleration? probably not...

Will you survive when the helmet will smash the dashboard during the deceleration, probably yes...

You think its crazy to fly night VFR training in a SE ?

Do you think youre confidence in surviving a crash will be better if you were flying with a helmet on the right side seat ?

Unfortunatly, no ones is ready to do that...

-Fred

[Cat Driver]

" Some like Cat say it is crazy to do training in a 172 at night, and we're trying to discuss on how to land the plane on the event of a engine failure. "

Well I don't think I said it was crazy Fred, what I am suggesting is building time for a higher license by flying x/country at night in a single engine airplane is exposing yourself to the risk of losing your life just to satisfy some experience requirement that could be changed.

As everyone keeps parroting, its all about risk management.

Here is how I manage my risk exposure as a pilot.

I do not:

Fly single engine aircraft fixed or rotary wing at night outside an airport circuit.

Fly single engine aircraft fixed or rotary wing over water beyond gliding distance from land.

Fly single engine IFR.

Fly single pilot IFR.

Cat