A President’s Message and a must read

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Torontomaplelaughs
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A President’s Message and a must read

Post by Torontomaplelaughs » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:52 pm

A friend sent me this today and it’s from Pacific Coastal’s Inflight Magazine. It is their “President’s Message”

Passengers numbers up but pilots numbers down

“Canadian airports have been recording increasing passengers for many years, and 2017 was no exception...Not surprisingly, there has been a corresponding growth of new airlines in Canada, and while the increased competition may be good news for passengers seeking lower fares, it is also contributing to a nationwide pilot shortage that could have serious consequences for smaller airlines and the communities they serve.

Regional airlines have always been a pathway for pilots seeking to fulfill their dream - to fly larger aircraft for tier one airlines. Once recruited into our program, our pilots are provided with highly regarded training which makes them attractive candidates to fill the rapidly growing needs of larger airlines. While our attrition rate remained manageable for many years, it is now becoming increasingly difficult to attract and retain the number of pilots needed to maintain our current level of service. Over the past few months, Canada’s regional airlines have been forced to cancel flights due to the pilot shortage and at present there does not appear to be a near term solution.

Additionally, the federal government is now considering the introduction of new legislation that would increase rest time for commercial pilots. Not only is the industry dealing with a worldwide pilot shortage, it may soon be required to use those fewer pilots a lot less!

You can help. Visit the Coalition of Canadian Airlines website, AirlinesCanada.ca; contact your local MP or MLA; and if you come across any out of work pilots, please send them my way. Thanks for flying with us.”

-Quentin Smith

Thoughts?

Mine:

- Airlines, like this, have enjoyed a pilot surplus compounded with pilots “chasing their dream” for a long time, and have taken advantage of this. Low pay, max CARs duty days, min time layovers, hiring them “casually” and “seasonally”

- which resulted with many potential pilots not entering the industry. Pay $100,000+ for training to make less than $30,000 with a long apprenticeship to just to get to a “tier one” then a long road from to there to start making some money

- so they are a large reason there is a pilot shortage

- their own attrition can be associated to their poor working conditions. Some leave to big iron, but many have left to other regionals.

- asking the public reduce potential rest time is going against not only science but safety
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2112
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by 2112 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:46 pm

If these regional's would stop playing the "stepping stone" card and actually start offering more than the status quo they might start getting applications from all of us 703 holdout's. As long as the days stay long and the pay low they are shooting themselves in the foot and deserve no sympathy. The constant jobs ads speak for themselves PASCO step it up or step out.
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by 7507 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:20 pm

2112 wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:46 pm
If these regional's would stop playing the "stepping stone" card and actually start offering more than the status quo they might start getting applications from all of us 703 holdout's. As long as the days stay long and the pay low they are shooting themselves in the foot and deserve no sympathy. The constant jobs ads speak for themselves PASCO step it up or step out.
I agree 100%. If smaller airlines like Pasco or jazz or Porter or even Georgian paid a living wage or an above wage pilots would be staying with them and not chase higher .

Then there would be no pilot shortage.
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by co-joe » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:27 pm

I agree 100%. If smaller airlines like Pasco or jazz or Porter or even Georgian paid a living wage or an above wage pilots would be staying with them and not chase higher .

Then there would be no pilot shortage.
Problem is, tier 3 wages are totally determined by the carrier paying for the capacity purchase agreement. Pasco pays what it does because it has to compete on a cost per available seat mile against CMA and GGN who have Air Canada paying for their seats whether they are full or not. The fact that they've managed to stay competitive is a major achievement.
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by CdnPilotsalary » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:01 am

Does anybody have Quentin's phone number? I found the solution:

Can't attract enough applicants? Pay more money.

They can't be struggling that badly if they're still asking for 750 hours. There are 19-year-olds flying Airbus' in Europe and Asia at 250 hours. I'm sure a 250 hour wonder can manage the 1900, which is a single pilot aircraft by the way.
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by 7507 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:38 am

CdnPilotsalary wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:01 am
Does anybody have Quentin's phone number? I found the solution:

Can't attract enough applicants? Pay more money.

They can't be struggling that badly if they're still asking for 750 hours. There are 19-year-olds flying Airbus' in Europe and Asia at 250 hours. I'm sure a 250 hour wonder can manage the 1900, which is a single pilot aircraft by the way.
If the 1900 is single pilot why is Georgian and skylink asking for at least 800 hours for the right seat.
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by Diadem » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:43 am

7507 wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:38 am
If the 1900 is single pilot why is Georgian and skylink asking for at least 800 hours for the right seat.
Because CARs 704 requires two pilots to operate it IFR with passengers on board. Perhaps you should know that if you want to fly it.
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by CdnPilotsalary » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:50 am

7507 wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:38 am
CdnPilotsalary wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:01 am
Does anybody have Quentin's phone number? I found the solution:

Can't attract enough applicants? Pay more money.

They can't be struggling that badly if they're still asking for 750 hours. There are 19-year-olds flying Airbus' in Europe and Asia at 250 hours. I'm sure a 250 hour wonder can manage the 1900, which is a single pilot aircraft by the way.
If the 1900 is single pilot why is Georgian and skylink asking for at least 800 hours for the right seat.
Diadem wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:43 am
7507 wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:38 am
If the 1900 is single pilot why is Georgian and skylink asking for at least 800 hours for the right seat.
Because CARs 704 requires two pilots to operate it IFR with passengers on board. Perhaps you should know that if you want to fly it.
I didn't mean that they could fly it single pilot. I meant that the aircraft was designed to be flown single pilot and can, in fact, be flown single pilot in Canada. See https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 7-1396.htm
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by FOD_Vacuum » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:30 am

There "can" be something done. Pay pilots a livable and fair wage (not the $30k for FO or $50k for capt bs)in accordance with our education and experience levels if you plan on retaining your pilots. You can still have applicants but I bet you once their bond is up or even before, they are looking to get out if you don't plan on changing the WAWCON. Not to mention, in this market, you will only attract low experienced pilots. Lets be real, the high time guys know the industry quite well and will not bite the carrot. Sorry 703/704, that's the truth, unless you plan on offering more.

Sit back do self reflection as management. Accept it is a pilot market and see what you can offer for them to stay. First and formost, a good wage. Introduce and pay out a good incentive bonus for every year completed ($15k) as a thank you (you will save money this way instead of having to spend more on a new pilot and their training).
Get rid on the 10 on 4 off crap schedule. Offer 10 on 10 off and rotations. You want to be able to have a good work/life balance. Offer incentive program for the company when you fly a certain amount of flights, that's extra money in their pockets. Make them feel appreciated and included. More productivity and knowing they get something out of it is a win-win for both parties. Offer company matching RSP...I'm not talking after 'three years of service, we will be "generous" enough and offer 1-5% matching..'. No, offer immediate 5-10% matching minimum so they have another reason to stay. Airlines are doing it, and so can you.

Do not bug or call them on their day off. Don't downgrade their crew accommodations. If you take away more than what is already limited at hand, you can bet pilots will jump ship. One more thing to add: "WE AS PILOTS CAN NEGOTIATE A BETTER WAGE THAN WHAT THEY ARE OFFERING, and they are willing to work with you in order to have you". Know what you are worth...you put years into your training and many hours of flying in your logbook and $1000s of dollars spent for it. There is a reason certain operators are paying $100k for tubine captains and thus have an average 10 year turnover rate. Learn something from these operators, you will be thankful you did, and as management, I'm sure you will be able to sleep better at night knowing that your pilots are happy. The above mentioned conditions and ideas are very doable. Once you introduce those things, pilots will think twice before jumping ship to Encore or Jazz, who arguably don't offer very good incentives. Good luck.
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by '97 Tercel » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:27 am

I remember applying at PASCO and never heard a thing...and the same for a few others.
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by altiplano » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:14 am

'97 Tercel wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:27 am
I remember applying at PASCO and never heard a thing...and the same for a few others.
I hear that 97,

I applied and applied at PASCO with an ATPL and multiple 1000s of hours of large turboprop PIC. I would have taken an FO job on a 1900. I called, even went into the office to see the CP a several times and he was always too busy or not available. Never a returned call or a word back.

It's not the days of lining up at the CPs office on Wednesdays with a bottle of rye and the latest Hustler magazine to try to get a job anymore...

Or was it Thursdays?... Anyway... The tides have turned.
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by sampsonmcd » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:47 am

I also applied to PASCO not too long ago for a FO job, although I would qualify as Capt. Funny, never heard a word back either. Go figure, I didnt know much about them but I feel like this opens my eyes.

Although I keep reading articles like this that make my blood boil, I'm actually pretty happy to see the impending shortage is getting to companies. Although the wages haven't followed suit yet, its possible they will have their hands forced soon. If they don't, I'm happy to watch them close the doors. Same thing happened down south after the 1500 hour rule came into play.

I still know quite a few people in the flight school world. Instructors and students are getting way more picky, most are expecting decent jobs out of flight school. The mentality is getting more entitled, which could be good. Less pilots willing to work as rampies or take up front bonds, better pay negotiated out of the gate. Good things are happening.

I know of one company flying MU2's in Ontario that is rumoured to be withholding ATPL upgrade letters for their pilots who are logging co pilot time. Cant do much if you dont have that letter. The funny thing is the lack of self awareness of companies. Alienating pilots, like this, or with fatigue reg talk will only make it harder to recruit pilots.
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by sampsonmcd » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:50 am

At least thier are still some reasonable voices who are also addressing the fatigue regs.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/myth-vs- ... lt-isaacs/


Myth vs. Fact: Canada’s Proposed Flight Crew Fatigue Rules
Published on Published onFebruary 2, 2018
Milt Isaacs

The fact is, Canada’s aviation sector is in desperate need of updated, science-based fatigue rules.

As the government moves towards finalizing these rules in the months ahead, it’s worth confronting some of the myths we keep hearing repeated with FACTS. Often these myths are propagated by industry operators who would have Canadians believe they have to choose between safety and a successful industry.

Myth: Canada’s proposed flight crew fatigue rules are science-based.

Truth: This claim is false.

FACT: The government has no grounds to claim that the prescriptive fatigue limits in the draft regulations are “science-based rules” or “in line with Federal Aviation Administration.” The draft regulations fall short of NASA’s scientific recommendations. They are significantly weaker than the fatigue rules put in place in the United States by the FAA.

Specifically, Canada’s proposed duty period limits provide inadequate protection for pilots and passengers in the evening hours. Why is the evening so critical? Science has shown that when pilots begin their duty period in the evening hours and operate overnight, their duty encroaches upon what is called the window of circadian low. This is the period between 2 and 6 a.m. when the human drive for sleep is at its strongest – and for pilots operating at that time, there is a strong indication of impairment – in decision making and reaction time – from fatigue. The best mitigation for that fatigue is a reduced duty period and in the case of long-haul flights, the addition of an extra pilot to ensure adequate rest periods are available to flight crew members.

Myth: “Most large operators already have stricter requirements in their collective agreements.”

Truth: This claim is false.

FACT: The 600 pilots at Air Canada Rouge are covered only by the Canadian Aviation Regulations which today permit a current maximum duty period of 14 hours – regardless of whether a pilot starts his or her day at 2 p.m. or 2 a.m. Even worse, that duty period can be extended by up to 3 hours for unforeseen operation circumstances like weather or mechanical delays.

The same applies for pilots at Air Transat,Sunwing, Cargojet – to name just a few. And pilots at Canada’s second largest carrier, WestJet do not yet even HAVE a collective agreement as they only very recently joined the fold at ALPA, and are in the early stages of negotiating one for themselves as we speak.

And those smaller operators? The government’s rules would see the implementation of new fatigue rules for them delayed for up to four years. It is irresponsible to give Canadians a false assurance that operators are protecting pilots and passengers. It is the responsibility of Transport Canada as to ensure rules are in place and being followed.

Myth: Staggered coming-into-force timelines will make for a smooth transition.

Truth: This claim is false.

FACT: By allowing small operators – whose pilots are most at risk of fatigue – a four-year implementation period, the transition will be far from smooth for those who continue to be forced to operate under 20-year old aviation safety rules that are drastically out of step with science and other jurisdictions. Equally it would mean that pilot s performing the same work would be subject to very different rules for a considerable period of time.

Myth: Tough fatigue rules will bankrupt the industry.

Truth: This claim is false.

FACT: When the United States implemented tougher fatigue rules, in the wake of the 2009 crash of Colgan Air Flight 3407 in Buffalo, New York, the airline industry warned of dire consequences. The results since then have told a different story: record profits, lower ticket prices and steady levels of pilot productivity.

The government calculates that Canada’s new rules – which fall short of fatigue science and international best practice -- would cost $0.28 per passenger per flight. Even if it costs twice as much as the government estimated to ensure Canadians – passengers, pilots and the neighbourhoods they fly over – have science-based fatigue rules, isn’t $0.56 per passenger per flight worth it?

What's unacceptable are the myths being spread by air operators who are desperate to cut costs at the expense of a safer aviation industry. Safety and getting the proposed fatigue rules right for Canadians is an investment into our industry. If Canadian aviation industry is seen, by other nations, as having substandard safety standards they will take action and that will have an impact on our economy. If the safety investment arguments doesn't get the government to listen to the voices of more than 9,000 professional pilots, perhaps an economic arguement will.
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by altiplano » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:34 am

At least thier are still some reasonable voices who are also addressing the fatigue regs.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/myth-vs- ... lt-isaacs/
The Accountant Speaks! (writes)

I absolutely agree.

It would be nice if we heard it out front somewhere in the mainstream...

Who is he addressing?

His Facebook friends?
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by Tanker299 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:29 pm

In the USA Cargo carriers are exempt. The FAA does have some strict rules on flying at night. Something like 3 days all night and 5 days with intermittent rest allowed. I hope we never go down the road of exempting cargo folks, they may be used to a night sked but for most your life happens during the day.

As for the conditions need to improve, a friend of mine with some time off was hit up for a bond on a 703 single and he left seats a 704 multi. The owners/shareholders need to understand that either they pay more and take home less or they sell everything pay off their debts and try and eek out a living on what left, or go get a job themselves.
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by eyebrow737 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:01 pm

You never get used to night sked. Don't listen to what anyone tells you. If we only lived by night then maybe, but we also have families and lives (?)
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by C.W.E. » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:54 pm

Pay pilots a livable and fair wage (not the $30k for FO or $50k for capt bs)in accordance with our education and experience levels if you plan on retaining your pilots
Is there a minimum education level now to get a Commercial or ATPL?

If so what is the education level?

Or do you mean a five thousand hour pilot with a degree in something should be paid more than a five thousand hour pilot with no post secondary education?
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by Jean-Pierre » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:38 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:54 pm
Pay pilots a livable and fair wage (not the $30k for FO or $50k for capt bs)in accordance with our education and experience levels if you plan on retaining your pilots
Is there a minimum education level now to get a Commercial or ATPL?

If so what is the education level?

Or do you mean a five thousand hour pilot with a degree in something should be paid more than a five thousand hour pilot with no post secondary education?
They already are. See salary at AC vs WJ.
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by Zaibatsu » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:40 pm

Supply and demand. You’re only worth what someone is willing to pay for you. They’ve elected to lower experience requirements rather than raise wages. Time will tell whether that works out for them or not. They don’t really fly in a part of the world that’s friendly to neophytes.
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by Tail-Chaser » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:51 pm

I wrote my MP. I implored my MP to not give in. If they're having trouble getting people they can damn well pay more.
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by Cat Driver » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:47 pm

They already are. See salary at AC vs WJ.
If they pay less to someone with less education does that pilot make less for the rest of their career?

Or do they not let the less educated pilots fly some trips because they lack the flying skills to safely fly those trips and they are only given the easy trips?
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by CdnPilotsalary » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:43 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:47 pm

If they pay less to someone with less education does that pilot make less for the rest of their career?

Or do they not let the less educated pilots fly some trips because they lack the flying skills to safely fly those trips and they are only given the easy trips?
I think what they meant is that AC strongly prefers hiring those with aviation college or a university degree.
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by Cat Driver » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:02 pm

I think what they meant is that AC strongly prefers hiring those with aviation college or a university degree.
O.K. that is reasonable.
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by naden » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:19 pm

Airline I work for has increased pay substantially, improved schedules, treats pilots well, and has a good reputation on this board as one of the better 703 operators to work for and we still can't hire enough qualified pilots.
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Re: A President’s Message and a must read

Post by modi13 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:21 pm

It sounds like this is largely a problem of Pasco's own making; I, too, applied to one of their captain postings from a couple of months ago, and I never heard anything. I met all the requirements they were asking for, and I even have a current left-seat PPC on one of the aircraft they operate, but not so much as an interview. It's hard to feel empathy for a company that doesn't seem to even be making the smallest of efforts to crew their airplanes, especially when they're taking on a huge new contract.
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