Avgas

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milotron
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Re: Avgas

Post by milotron »

YYC650 wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:22 pm Is there actually any prohibition on the use of this fuel, if it is already in your aircraft? We've filled up our RV-7a at Springbank several times since December 28, and haven't observed any issues. Is there any reason why we can't fly off the fuel that is currently in the tanks?
This is my question too. I see that the fuel is not being sold, but nothing preventing anybody from actually using what they have. I also have 70 gallons in the tanks bought early January. No operational issues and the level sensors are reading in compliance with what the totalizer is saying.

I mentioned ethanol previously, but so long as there are no chemistry issues related to seals, o-rings, etc., and my floaty tank sensors read fine, I am not sure what the concern is. If I had capacitive level sensors, or there was a significant static discharge concern related to the fuel flowing through the lines, then that would be a different story.
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Oldguystrtn2fly
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Re: Avgas

Post by Oldguystrtn2fly »

Buy8ng it 8n January doesn’t mean you have the “bad”fuel. They stated deliveries starting the 28th of December. So it matters when your airdrome got there last delivery and then, if after the 28 , was it a out of spec load or not. My home aerodrome got there last fuel shipment dec 21 so we know our fuel is unaffected.
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final28
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Re: Avgas

Post by final28 »

For a certified aircraft operating with fuel that does not meet specifications may violate operating conditions. If anything, even unrelated, occurs there could be insurance issues.
For experimental category aircraft probably up to you and depending on your specific engine.
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BE02 Driver
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Re: Avgas

Post by BE02 Driver »

YYC650 wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:22 pm Is there actually any prohibition on the use of this fuel, if it is already in your aircraft? We've filled up our RV-7a at Springbank several times since December 28, and haven't observed any issues. Is there any reason why we can't fly off the fuel that is currently in the tanks?
Personally I'd ask my airport for all the fuel for my homebuilt. They can't sell it and it's going to be a pain in the a** to get rid of. Offer to take it off their hands! Free fuel!
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Cessna 180
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Re: Avgas

Post by Cessna 180 »

BE02 Driver wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:14 pm
YYC650 wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:22 pm Is there actually any prohibition on the use of this fuel, if it is already in your aircraft? We've filled up our RV-7a at Springbank several times since December 28, and haven't observed any issues. Is there any reason why we can't fly off the fuel that is currently in the tanks?
Personally I'd ask my airport for all the fuel for my homebuilt. They can't sell it and it's going to be a pain in the a** to get rid of. Offer to take it off their hands! Free fuel!
Probably will be taken back by the supplier. They sold them a bad product so I can't see why they wouldn't if it wasn't the product you paid for.
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Schooner69A
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Re: Avgas

Post by Schooner69A »

YYC650:

I've sent you a pm...

JMS
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sunk
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Re: Avgas

Post by sunk »

My concern is esso going to come good for the commercial operators who lost revenue?
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Victory
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Re: Avgas

Post by Victory »

Uh no that's ridiculous. They sell a product. Avgas isn't some human right or something.
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7ECA
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Re: Avgas

Post by 7ECA »

who me ? wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:28 am Curious, where you found , “ as use of it is prohibited due to conductivity issues” quote?
Until Imperial’s understanding of the issue improves and the most appropriate resupply options are identified, Imperial continues to advise to not use or distribute the product.
Pardon me, I may have overstepped by saying "prohibited". Nevertheless, Imperial Oil aka Esso, is saying don't use any AvGas delivered after December 28th.
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dpm
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Re: Avgas

Post by dpm »

sunk wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:49 pm My concern is esso going to come good for the commercial operators who lost revenue?
If they did have to make a payout of tens of millions of dollars to users for lost business, the obvious follow-up action would be to stop producing 100LL in Canada altogether. It's already a tiny-volume, marginal business that probably barely survives the chopping block at every annual budget-planning meeting.


D
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@CYRO
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Re: Avgas

Post by Loner »

It’s no different than any business dependent of suppliers, the business assumes the risk, the supplier is under no obligation to deliver
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J31
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Re: Avgas

Post by J31 »

From COPA

https://copanational.org/en/2018/02/15/ ... arantined/

**Update**

Imperial Oil has updated the avgas situation and has found some hopeful signs but is still recommending that fuel received between Dec. 28 and Feb. 13 not be used. The good news is that the fuel is unlikely to have caused any performance issues other than interference with fuel gauge sensors for those who have put it in their aircraft. Here is what Imperial had to say.

The company continues to work around the clock to understand the issue and explore interim supply solutions for customers.

Imperial has confirmed that avgas already lifted from Imperial’s Nanaimo, B.C. and Winnipeg, Man., terminals has no issues.

Otherwise, we are working on three potential solutions and will seek your input on these. Here is what they are:

Scenario 1 – Best Case Scenario: Investigation indicates some delivered product cleared fit-for-use;

Scenario 2 – Blending; Investigation indicates the issue can be resolved by blending the off-spec with additional product;

Scenario 3 – Pump out and replace fuel in inventory.

As we communicated previously, the concern about this avgas is that as a result of the product quality issue, interference could occur with onboard fuel gauge sensors. We do not suspect potential for other performance issues. Until Imperial’s understanding of the issue improves and the most appropriate resupply options are identified, Imperial continues to advise to not use or distribute the product.



Transport Canada has issued the following nation-wide NOTAM:

180001 CYHQ NATIONAL
CYHQ POTENTIAL QUALITY ISSUE OF FUEL 100LL (JET A NOT AFFECTED)
DISTRIBUTED BY IMPERIAL OIL (EXTENT UNKNOWN)
VERIFY LOCALLY FOR AVBL
1802160008 TIL APRX 1802231800

Avgas supplies across the country delivered since late December have been quarantined, forcing retailers to temporarily halt sales. During the quality control process, it was discovered the conductivity level of the fuel did not meet specifications. The quarantine means that many FBOs and airport fuel suppliers have closed their avgas pumps until a solution to the problem is found. FlightFuels spokesman Craig Tanselli told COPA Flight the problem originated with the Edmonton Esso refinery that produces all the avgas for the whole country. He said his company is checking inventories to see if there is any unaffected avgas that they can sell but for the time being there are no avgas sales. Many airports have issued NOTAMs advising they cannot sell avgas. Jet fuel is not affected. Several airports who received their fuel prior to December 28, 2017 are reporting that their supply has been tested and found to be within specifications. COPA is monitoring the situation and will provide updates as they become available.
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superbilly24
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Re: Avgas

Post by superbilly24 »

milotron wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:54 am
superbilly24 wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:07 am 180039 CYQM MONCTON/GREATER MONCTON R.LEBLANC INTL
CYQM FUEL 100LL NOT AVBL
1802161341 TIL 1802171600

We've been grounded since Thursday in Moncton. I guess all the fuel comes from that one refinery in Alberta.
Are you grounded due to lack of fuel, or to fear of damage or operational issues?
We have fuel, but were advised by the supplier to not use it until further notice. We are still waiting to see if they will drain our tank and then receive some fresh fuel, or if we will be able to use the fuel we have.
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mijbil
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Re: Avgas

Post by mijbil »

BE02 Driver wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:14 pm
YYC650 wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:22 pm Is there actually any prohibition on the use of this fuel, if it is already in your aircraft? We've filled up our RV-7a at Springbank several times since December 28, and haven't observed any issues. Is there any reason why we can't fly off the fuel that is currently in the tanks?
Personally I'd ask my airport for all the fuel for my homebuilt. They can't sell it and it's going to be a pain in the a** to get rid of. Offer to take it off their hands! Free fuel!
Or save it for the local airshow or flog it to hot rod cars who would love some 100 LL.

I like the STC for Mogas idea as well, BUT, " you want Mogas?, you all gots to give me Mo money!!" Nothing at Transport is free.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Avgas

Post by CpnCrunch »

mijbil wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:36 pm I like the STC for Mogas idea as well, BUT, " you want Mogas?, you all gots to give me Mo money!!" Nothing at Transport is free.
TC already has a blanket mogas approval for C150, C182 and a few other types, with no STC required:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca- ... /mogas.pdf

(see section 8.0, category 4). Unfortunately you're limited to 4700 or 5500ft and 24C, so it isn't terribly useful.
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7ECA
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Re: Avgas

Post by 7ECA »

Seems like a number of airports in the Lower Mainland are back to selling AvGas.

Any official word from TC or Esso as to what the solution is?
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oldncold
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Re: Avgas

Post by oldncold »

question didnt a new refinery start up in Edmonton area first one in IN 35 YEARS. Could they make avgas?
2) playing devils advocate could this be imperial oils exit strategy from avgas all together :?:
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RevT
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Re: Avgas

Post by RevT »

oldncold wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:18 pm question didnt a new refinery start up in Edmonton area first one in IN 35 YEARS. Could they make avgas?
2) playing devils advocate could this be imperial oils exit strategy from avgas all together :?:
The NWR refinery is kind of an interesting one in that they are very heavily focused on diesel production and have stated they won't be producing any finished gasoline products (they will produce blending components like Naphtha and VGO). That's unusual for a North American refinery so I wouldn't expect them to enter the avgas market. They have a good page online about it: https://nwrsturgeonrefinery.com/project ... the-value/

As for IOL exiting the market - only they would know. But they're logistically set up to do it now and they're the only ones who do it in Canada. That's a nice position to be in. So the question is whether they could do something better with their assets and whether the costs of maintaining a good avgas supply chain outweigh the margins.
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Heliian
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Re: Avgas

Post by Heliian »

I gave up trying to understand the Canadian oil situation, it essentially comes down to what the max profits can be made.

We need to rein this back in to a semi-competent government that would better diversify our resources and handle business right here in Canada. We have been in need of refineries ever since they all shut down and not only that, we needed more.
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sunk
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Re: Avgas

Post by sunk »

Went to order a B train of avgas and was told they still are not delivering.
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