Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
Because I want my user fees, small as they are, spent on the basis of sound policy and not on whomever shouts the loudest.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
Except they don't. How long has Red Deer been waiting for a Tower? I can guarantee you that closing Buttonville won't open a tower someplace else. It will just be one less line item for NavCanada to pay for. Look at the US, pretty well every major/minor city has at least one towered airport and cities the size of Toronto have two, sometimes three satellite airports for GA traffic with towers. If you close Buttonville Tower, there are literally 0 airports in the GTA with towers that a jet can fly into (unless you consider Oshawa, but it's quite removed from Toronto). Hell, even the "sprawling metropolis" has two towered airports, and they used to have three before City Center closed its doors. It's also not prohibitively expensive to operate into YEG like it is for YYZ.skybluetrek wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 9:53 am I don't really understand why, beyond traffic statistics, anyone as a pilot would be against, or indifferent to, keeping an atc facility open? Economics? Is it to help the government with the budget? Or perhaps to help the private company NavCanada to manage their resources in a better/more convenient way for them, expecting that by closing this tower they will open/improve facilities in some other more needed location?
I understand the US model is a little different than Canada, most smaller airports (essentially all Class D) use private contract towers with the operator picking up part of the bill and the FAA the other. Maybe this is a model Canada should adopt. FYI we do have one contract tower, Southport, with the military's contractor paying Serco for it (same contractor many US towers use).
Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
This is quite a hilarious statement. All the FBOs at YYZ are there for what, exactly?there are literally 0 airports in the GTA with towers that a jet can fly into (unless you consider Oshawa,
So, Yes! Apart from YYZ, and Buttonville, and Oshawa, and Hamilton, there are literally ZERO airports that take private jets ANYWHERE near Toronto!
Closing Buttonville tower doesn’t automatically open a tower somewhere else. But NavCanada should maintain and open towers based on solid criteria and not campaigns.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
I don't disagree with you that Toronto has two fine FBOs that jets can use, but if you read my post, I was talking about less expensive satellite airports. Toronto is extremely expensive to land your Citation or Learjet or even your King Air. Hamilton isn't in the GTA, nor is Waterloo. I guess Oshawa would count as the GTA so I'll retract my statement that there aren't any airports. However, I think we can both see the role that Buttonville plays for business aviation in Toronto.photofly wrote: ↑Sun May 13, 2018 3:45 amThis is quite a hilarious statement. All the FBOs at YYZ are there for what, exactly?there are literally 0 airports in the GTA with towers that a jet can fly into (unless you consider Oshawa,
So, Yes! Apart from YYZ, and Buttonville, and Oshawa, and Hamilton, there are literally ZERO airports that take private jets ANYWHERE near Toronto!
Closing Buttonville tower doesn’t automatically open a tower somewhere else. But NavCanada should maintain and open towers based on solid criteria and not campaigns.
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July
Gee, who cares? Fly into Waterloo or Hamilton with that citation, take a limo. They are close enough. No farther than Teteboro to NYC or others.Cessna 180 wrote: ↑Sun May 13, 2018 4:06 am
I don't disagree with you that Toronto has two fine FBOs that jets can use, but if you read my post, I was talking about less expensive satellite airports. Toronto is extremely expensive to land your Citation or Learjet or even your King Air. Hamilton isn't in the GTA, nor is Waterloo. I guess Oshawa would count as the GTA so I'll retract my statement that there aren't any airports. However, I think we can both see the role that Buttonville plays for business aviation in Toronto.
The world will keep turning.
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July
Or continue to fly your jet into Buttonville once the tower is gone. It’s not like a tower is a requirement to land a jet. Many a jet fly into uncontrolled and MF airports everyday accross Canada just fine. Your Vapp speed in a citation or lear is somewhere in the neighbourhood of 130. Get over yourself.Cessna 180 wrote: ↑Sun May 13, 2018 4:06 am
I don't disagree with you that Toronto has two fine FBOs that jets can use, but if you read my post, I was talking about less expensive satellite airports. Toronto is extremely expensive to land your Citation or Learjet or even your King Air. Hamilton isn't in the GTA, nor is Waterloo. I guess Oshawa would count as the GTA so I'll retract my statement that there aren't any airports. However, I think we can both see the role that Buttonville plays for business aviation in Toronto.
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
Nav Canada is not a part of the government and I would agree that a costly tower operation at a location that doesn't meet criteria is a mis-use of my Nav Canada fees. Especially when other programs such as space based ADS-B are being developed by them. Where do you think the funding for that comes from?skybluetrek wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 9:53 am I don't really understand why, beyond traffic statistics, anyone as a pilot would be against, or indifferent to, keeping an atc facility open? Economics? Is it to help the government with the budget? Or perhaps to help the private company NavCanada to manage their resources in a better/more convenient way for them, expecting that by closing this tower they will open/improve facilities in some other more needed location?
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
Yup that was my point. And of course the world will keep turning, but that's not really the point I'd say, the point is to speak up when the system is under the threat of getting dismantled without clear tangible operational benefits for the users(pilots), either at the same location or somewhere else.Cessna 180 wrote: ↑Sun May 13, 2018 3:29 amExcept they don't. How long has Red Deer been waiting for a Tower? I can guarantee you that closing Buttonville won't open a tower someplace else. It will just be one less line item for NavCanada to pay for. Look at the US, pretty well every major/minor city has at least one towered airport and cities the size of Toronto have two, sometimes three satellite airports for GA traffic with towers. If you close Buttonville Tower, there are literally 0 airports in the GTA with towers that a jet can fly into (unless you consider Oshawa, but it's quite removed from Toronto). Hell, even the "sprawling metropolis" has two towered airports, and they used to have three before City Center closed its doors. It's also not prohibitively expensive to operate into YEG like it is for YYZ.skybluetrek wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 9:53 am I don't really understand why, beyond traffic statistics, anyone as a pilot would be against, or indifferent to, keeping an atc facility open? Economics? Is it to help the government with the budget? Or perhaps to help the private company NavCanada to manage their resources in a better/more convenient way for them, expecting that by closing this tower they will open/improve facilities in some other more needed location?
I understand the US model is a little different than Canada, most smaller airports (essentially all Class D) use private contract towers with the operator picking up part of the bill and the FAA the other. Maybe this is a model Canada should adopt. FYI we do have one contract tower, Southport, with the military's contractor paying Serco for it (same contractor many US towers use).
And maybe for the airport operator to now launch a court challenge is a bit too much; If the owner, corporation, finds the way to actually do something else with the land they would close the airport tomorrow towered or not. Having said that, if you normally operate out of Buttonville in these days, you'd have to agree that it is a sound decision and policy to have a control tower(or at least an FSS) there now.
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
The jet owner, who likely has abundant choices, can A) fly into buttonville without a tower, or B) go to at least 4 other airports I can immediately think of in close proximity with a tower.
Not seeing the big issue.
Not seeing the big issue.
Last edited by rookiepilot on Sun May 13, 2018 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
Fair enough, I get it, and this is slightly off topic, but your comment made me think of the question... If pilots were given the option as for how to better spend the NavCanada budget, would they go with the ADB-S system implementation, or would they rather having more control towers at busy enough airports ???linecrew wrote: ↑Sun May 13, 2018 8:44 amNav Canada is not a part of the government and I would agree that a costly tower operation at a location that doesn't meet criteria is a mis-use of my Nav Canada fees. Especially when other programs such as space based ADS-B are being developed by them. Where do you think the funding for that comes from?skybluetrek wrote: ↑Sat May 12, 2018 9:53 am I don't really understand why, beyond traffic statistics, anyone as a pilot would be against, or indifferent to, keeping an atc facility open? Economics? Is it to help the government with the budget? Or perhaps to help the private company NavCanada to manage their resources in a better/more convenient way for them, expecting that by closing this tower they will open/improve facilities in some other more needed location?
Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
I believe the intent behind ADSB is to avoid having to replace several EOL radar installations at astronomical costs, so you can have ADSB *and* more towers.
If you left it up to pilots, NavCanada would spend its budget dishing out hamburgers and free 100LL at every FSS, so perhaps budget decisions are best made by others.
If you left it up to pilots, NavCanada would spend its budget dishing out hamburgers and free 100LL at every FSS, so perhaps budget decisions are best made by others.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
I think ADS-B is more about vastly huge increases in surveillance coverage than what radar currently provides (doing it from space where line of site isn't an issue) rather than simply avoiding the cost of replacing old radar units.
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
LOLphotofly wrote: ↑Sun May 13, 2018 2:35 pm I believe the intent behind ADSB is to avoid having to replace several EOL radar installations at astronomical costs, so you can have ADSB *and* more towers.
If you left it up to pilots, NavCanada would spend its budget dishing out hamburgers and free 100LL at every FSS, so perhaps budget decisions are best made by others.
Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
Tower closing has been delayed. Rumour is the tower will remain open until Late October. Lawsuits take time.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/b ... -1.4659508
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/b ... -1.4659508
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
Hard, also, for Torontair to bill landing fees when they won’t have a control tower to log movements for them.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
It's already a mess after 5pm, no one is respecting traffic circuit procedures for aerodromes within an MF with No airport advisory information. And there's also the overflies at less than 400ft above PA to stay within the E. Next summer should be interesting.
ATC privatization will only get worse and worse for GA.
ATC privatization will only get worse and worse for GA.
Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
I overflew there a month ago at 6pm on a Sunday when the tower was shut and it was a disaster waiting to happen.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
Buttonville pending Tower closure back in the news. Set to close Jan 3, 2019.
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/pilots-fligh ... -1.4174247
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/pilots-fligh ... -1.4174247