To those owners who could need an approval...

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PilotDAR
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To those owners who could need an approval...

Post by PilotDAR »

To those owners who could one day need an approval for a mod or a repair, it's time to speak up for yourselves....

During a Transport Canada presentation today, we were told that the fees levied by TC for STC/RDA/PDA applications are under consideration for increase, TC wants more cost recovery. One of the figures presented is that for approval work supported by TC, their cost recovery as around 6% (so the taxpayer is presumed to be funding 94%, I guess). They would like to have the applicant pay more, and taxpayer less.

I presented a cautionary thought on behalf GA owners across Canada, that increasing TC fees increases the cost of perhaps necessary [aging aircraft] repair approvals (RDA), and STC's (be they serialized, of to the fleet). Increased cost will result in decreased aircraft use, which mean less flying for pilots, meaning lesser proficiency, so less safe. Or, simply the more expensive you make flying, the less safe pilots and planes will be. This approach to the argument pops up a TC red flag, as they are not supposed to do things which reduce safety.

TC mentions "European" models for cost recovery. I mentioned that the 182 amphibian which was Canadian, and cost about $350 an hour to operate here, costs more than $750 an hour to operate in Norway, where it now resides. So adopting a European cost recovery model could halve flying - and maybe halve pilot proficiency. I also pointed out that more regulation and oversight is hardly needed for modification and repair of aircraft, that' not the risk we need to reduce. pilots still make errors, and planes crash, we need more pilots flying more - not less.

I mentioned that if TC left the work more to their DAR's, costs wold be lower, as TC would not have so many of their staff hours into projects on older GA aircraft, which were not really at the center of their staff's skill sets. My quoting labour rate is about 1/2 of what they say they internal hourly cost is for a TC Engineer to do approval work (and DARs are usually faster!).

And.... If an aircraft has a defect, particularly an aging aircraft/wear and tear type item, and a mod repair is needed to return it to service, they cannot dissuade the owner with higher costs to maintain a safe aircraft.

The TC staff members to whom I presented this logic were receptive to the concept. But they hastened to point out, that they react to the quantity of comments, much more than the persuasiveness of one. I was the one. Now I'm here to tell ya, that before internet chat groups and social media, I attended a TC CARAC meeting which introduced the prospect of noise compliance requirements (new CAR 516). Future engine and prop changes would most likely require noise testing to demonstrate compliance. This was the first notion that TC Aircraft Certification branch would regulate something other than safety. I pleaded (in writing) that they exempt aircraft under 350 HP, to prevent a situation where compliance would require cost prohibitive noise testing. I contacted several alphabet groups (knowing that a rep from a well known one was sitting next to me in the meeting). I could not raise any interest. In the end, TC reported to me that mine was the only letter of dissent. The rule was enacted, and yes, I have done the testing (for the afore mentioned 182 amphib) - the testing cost more than $15,000. Compliance was shown, but what a cost! If back in the pre CAR 516 days, owners had raised opposition, TC might have listened.

So it's up to you, are you worried that TC would like to recover more than the 6% they do now? If they went from 6% to half, jaws would drop, and aircraft would park. ( I guess that parked aircraft are still safe :( ). You can't complain about the cost of TC services, if, when they ask, you do not comment! If you're okay with whatever they decide, do nothing. I have written one email and following today's hall chat, will be writing a follow up. I will also be speaking more with a COPA director, suggesting that COPA take this on, on behalf of its members. Bear in mind that approving a mod that I might wish or require on my airplanes is affordable for me - I see the problem, but it is not my problem much.

So I, the self appointed AvCanada observer today, report this to you, what would you like to do with that?
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Last edited by PilotDAR on Tue May 15, 2018 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
digits_
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Re: To those owners who could need an approval...

Post by digits_ »

Thank you for bringing that to our attention.

Who do we need to contact, and does the new proposed regulation/policy have a reference number/title/code we need to mention?
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PilotDAR
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Re: To those owners who could need an approval...

Post by PilotDAR »

Fortunately, the thoughtful TC people are consulting us, before they even begin the formal CARAC consultation process. Therefore, I don't think this has a project number yet. The best person to contact would be: marc.caouette@tc.gc.ca . But, be gentle, he's a nice fellow, trying to do his best for us, and for the taxpayer too.... The topic would be proposed changes to TC cost recovery/fees.
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mbav8r
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Re: To those owners who could need an approval...

Post by mbav8r »

While I can sympathize, I hate paying more for things but I had no idea that 95% of the population are paying 94% of the cost of enforcing the regulations. I don’t own an airplane because I simply have other priorities for my finances and from a non general aviation perspective, you should be paying a bigger share, it’s called user fees. I don’t use it, why am I paying for it. Same for property tax, more than half is school tax to the tune of 3600/yr but I don’t have any kids in school.
I do have a question and I can appreciate if you don’t want to answer based on my position, how much do you currently pay?
I only ask because, let’s say it’s 50.00, how could that be 6% of the cost of what amounts to paperwork, or is there more too it I’m not seeing?
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digits_
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Re: To those owners who could need an approval...

Post by digits_ »

mbav8r wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 6:24 pm While I can sympathize, I hate paying more for things but I had no idea that 95% of the population are paying 94% of the cost of enforcing the regulations. I don’t own an airplane because I simply have other priorities for my finances and from a non general aviation perspective, you should be paying a bigger share, it’s called user fees. I don’t use it, why am I paying for it. Same for property tax, more than half is school tax to the tune of 3600/yr but I don’t have any kids in school.
I do have a question and I can appreciate if you don’t want to answer based on my position, how much do you currently pay?
I only ask because, let’s say it’s 50.00, how could that be 6% of the cost of what amounts to paperwork, or is there more too it I’m not seeing?
True, however, a lot (if not most?) of the regulations and paperwork in aviation are there to protect the non-users. Some speculation on my side, but I doubt anyone really cares if an idiot plane owners takes off with leaky fuel tanks and rusted wings out of annual and kills himself in the middle of the ocean. Now if the same idiot crashes on a school, every regulator (and citizen) will care a lot, hence the (perceived?) need for regulation.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: To those owners who could need an approval...

Post by PilotDAR »

All correct. The fees for aircraft certification (approval) activities range from a low of $180 for reissue of a certificate (with revision/changes), to the common $220 for a serialized STC, to $1900 for a full STC, and then big number for other complex work, and type certificates. The work I do is most commonly the $220 fee, and the minimums of the work I am required to do (really before I get to the meat of the project), could take the bill to near $1000, before any substantial work/analysis/testing/reporting is done. TC will also apply staff time from I suppose an hour or so administrative, to what they state as 300 hours, beyond which the project really is immense. Whether TC spends one hour, ten hours, or hundreds of hours is based upon the complexity, and their familiarity with the nature of the project. If it's simple, and well within my scope as a DAR, their effort is an hour or less of admin, I do all the rest, and invoice my client. But, if it's big complex, taking hundreds of hours of TC time, in addition to the DAR time, the fee is the same, and the bean counter clutch their chests. I do see the problem.

So I have advocated that the client should be able to hire a DAR who is really familiar, and efficient, and gets the simple projects through TC with little effort. Cost saving all the way around, and quick turn around also. TC agrees. The $220 as a minimum is reasonable, 'cause an hour of admin time at the TC cost for an Engineer and admin assistant works out to about that. But once the project gets complex, they would like to recover more cost. Again, fair. It's how to measure it. If TC simply charges by the hour, it's going to get expensive fast, and then the client really can ask why did they also hire a DAR to make the approval. (By the way, it's because TC has nowhere near the person power to get all the projects through - the backlog would just get longer and longer).

I worry, as I'm seeing increasing need for repair approvals. X on my plane is worn out, AME/AMO will not sign it out, and mfg either can't sell a replacement part, or the cost/delivery is out of sight. All the used parts on the market seem to be worn out too. Our lanes are just getting old! Cessna, Piper et al, simply did not envision that we'd try to keep them flying as long as we have. They're really not so enthusiastic to sustain these aircraft, so they limit parts availability. The minute the parts/repairs we're discussing are identified as primary structure, TC takes a real interest, and starts spending lots of time double checking things. They (nor I) want their name on an approval for a wing which departs in flight weeks later. I am working a spar defect project right now. The aircraft will be released to service with inspection requirements, rather than having to entirely replace two spars, but this was a major effort for TC to permit - more than two years in the making, and I had to contract out a major analysis.

I don't want to quote a number of thousand dollars for a repair approval, to which my client agrees, to then have TC apply their own fee of many thousand more. I, and my client, want that known up front!

I am very satisfied that the TC people I spoke with today understand, and can articulate these concerns, and the underlying reasons. But, their understanding, and doing what we would most prefer, are not directly related. They'll be much better related if the consumer group provides useful comments.
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Re: To those owners who could need an approval...

Post by JasonE »

Thanks Jim for bringing this to our attention. I'll be sending in an email !
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"Carelessness and overconfidence are more dangerous than deliberately accepted risk." -Wilbur Wright
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