New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Tanker299
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 166
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:16 am

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by Tanker299 »

There gonna have a real hard time telling pilots especially private pilots and ultralight pilots they can't do this. They won't be able to segment us off either as lots of private pilots also have a bare bones cpl as a tax write off. I know we want to think we are the smartest people in the world but if your cool with the cops, who make split second stressed decisions that have life and death consequences doing it? How about the judge who is now making an as you put it an impaired decision. Would that not null and void every one of their rulings? Doctors and nurses or even firefighters? How about any licenced firearm owner? How long until they can handle a gun? Who's ever shown up in camp and not had that Tabbaco or Coffee for the bush pilot and cowboys? Have you seen how impaired they are? Or that pilot who smokes 2 packs a day after 5-10 hours in the cockpit no smoke... anyone who's a non smoker tried a we lil dip or a puff. Head rush and impaired for bit. Lots of stimulants that can f u up are completely legal.
They have had 100 years to figure this out and a lot of you sound like the women's temperance league of the 20s. We all know long term alcohol use causes a host of medical issues and even loss of surface area in your brain. Plus the lack of restful sleep after you have a few... TC has an uphill battle and they will lose.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
valleyboy
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 797
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by valleyboy »

Nothing has really changed, I remember telling a group of pilots back in the late 70's to cool it and get rid of their grow op in the basement. Like I said nothing really happens until the shit hits the fan and then you find yourself kicking stones because your brain went into neutral and you didn't have the sense to control your urges.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Black air has no lift - extra fuel has no weight
http://www.blackair.ca
annonyous123
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:07 am

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by annonyous123 »

They just need a way to test to show impaired or not impaired like alcohol.....then its gonna be a free for all, IMO.
Both alcohol and Marijuana can be detected in your system for up to 3 weeks.

Who ever comes up with it first is rich!!
---------- ADS -----------
 
cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1632
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by cncpc »

Tanker299 wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:38 am There gonna have a real hard time telling pilots especially private pilots and ultralight pilots they can't do this. They won't be able to segment us off either as lots of private pilots also have a bare bones cpl as a tax write off. I know we want to think we are the smartest people in the world but if your cool with the cops, who make split second stressed decisions that have life and death consequences doing it? How about the judge who is now making an as you put it an impaired decision. Would that not null and void every one of their rulings? Doctors and nurses or even firefighters? How about any licenced firearm owner? How long until they can handle a gun? Who's ever shown up in camp and not had that Tabbaco or Coffee for the bush pilot and cowboys? Have you seen how impaired they are? Or that pilot who smokes 2 packs a day after 5-10 hours in the cockpit no smoke... anyone who's a non smoker tried a we lil dip or a puff. Head rush and impaired for bit. Lots of stimulants that can f u up are completely legal.
They have had 100 years to figure this out and a lot of you sound like the women's temperance league of the 20s. We all know long term alcohol use causes a host of medical issues and even loss of surface area in your brain. Plus the lack of restful sleep after you have a few... TC has an uphill battle and they will lose.
I hear you, but it is jumping the gun to say that there is going to be some "battle" with TC. I think that response from the RAMO I quoted above, plus the Criminal Code provisions against being impaired in control of an airplane, and the Regs prohibiting it as well, cover all the bases as it is. A clear head in the cockpit. I doubt there is a single poster on this forum who disputes that. I'd be fairly sure that Transport knows that.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.
C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by C.W.E. »

Here is part of one companies add in the employment forum.
As this is a Safety Sensitive Position, selected candidate(s) must test negative for controlled substances and alcohol prior to employment.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Heliian
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1976
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:14 pm

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by Heliian »

Pre employment testing is not new, they've done it up in the patch for years. I heard the other day that pot use had dropped but the use of other drugs that metabolize faster has increased.

There has been contentious debate about this for decades, people still don't want to surrender their rights.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
C-GGGQ
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2052
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 12:33 pm

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by C-GGGQ »

Truckers are pre emplyment and random call up. Yes it's only for entering the US but how many airline pilots here fly only Canada routes?
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5931
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by digits_ »

Tanker299 wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:38 am anyone who's a non smoker tried a we lil dip or a puff. Head rush and impaired for bit.
Nope. Never tried it, don't have the urge.

And that's one of the problems: weed, alcohol, tobacco are way too often viewed through rose colored "i am cool" glasses, often by people who can't resist the urge. If you can't resist the urge, but you try to succesfully portray the image that "everyone at least tried it once", it makes you look less weak and feel less guilty. It is also very easy to find likeminded people to reinforce the believe that everyone tried it.

I can honestly say I know more people that did NOT try weed or cigarettes, than people who DID try it. Some posts make it sound like whole Canada is secretly smoking and drinking in their basements. I'd be surprised...
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
User avatar
confusedalot
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 959
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: location, location, is what matters

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by confusedalot »

wow. the perfect human that makes no mistakes.

lots of types like that who have plunged the world into debilitating misery.

no thanks, will keep my slight human foibles and will continue to do good things, instead of hammering persons to death.

didn't use pot because the jeopardy to a medical far outweighed the natural human curiosity to see what it is all about. I do not however think that a pot user is some sort of freak of nature.

smoked, and still smoke cigarettes though, but I am an old timer where smoking tobacco was not viewed as some kind of psychosocial crazy and psychotic habit. lots of high profile people smoked. some high profile types did not, some of them being rather infamous. for their rather negative impact on society. There is no correlation to be made.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.

veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.

:?
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5931
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by digits_ »

confusedalot wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:45 pm wow. the perfect human that makes no mistakes.
Not at all, merely contesting the fact that everyone has tried it.

confusedalot wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:45 pm didn't use pot because the jeopardy to a medical far outweighed the natural human curiosity to see what it is all about. I do not however think that a pot user is some sort of freak of nature.
Should I reply "wow. the perfect human that makes no mistakes." to this statement as well then?
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
skybluetrek
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:53 am

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by skybluetrek »

Here is part of one companies add in the employment forum.
As this is a Safety Sensitive Position, selected candidate(s) must test negative for controlled substances and alcohol prior to employment.
annonyous123 wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:51 am Both alcohol and Marijuana can be detected in your system for up to 3 weeks.
C.W.E. wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:46 pm
Heliian wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:04 pm I heard the other day that pot use had dropped but the use of other drugs that metabolize faster has increased.
So the rules of the game are: Massively drunk 2 to 5 days ago = Alcohol Positive = You're 'clear' and eligible VS Marijuana in some form 3 weeks ago = THC Positive = Your career is over.
Isn't the fairness of the test what we're debating? No pilot should abuse any substances, that's obvious.
What are they going to do when more frequent tests in search of thc starts revealing broad ethanol use and abuse + other drugs among pilots? Maybe the old fashion scotch and beer drinker will end up suportting the younger pro cannabis cause' they're both on the same boat of not getting busted!? :rolleyes:
---------- ADS -----------
 
av8ts
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:31 am

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by av8ts »

Mr. North wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:36 pm
Meatservo wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:46 pm I predict zero change.
I respectfully disagree.

As someone who has followed (and heavily invested in) the emerging cannabis industry for the better part of three years, I'm quite confident we are about to witness a significant societal change.

Cannabis as you or I know it (bong rips and fat blunts) will only make up a marginal rate of consumption in what is expected to be a $20 Billion industry. Well over half of cannabis sales will be in the form of pills, edibles, beverages, oils and creams. The cannabis beverage market in particular stands to severely disrupt the entire alcohol market as people will gravitate towards uplifting drinks minus the calories, bad hangovers, and negative long term health effects. The potency will vary as wide as the product offering, from barely perceptible to full on couch lock. These numerous products and potencies offered by legalisation will attract a large segment of the population who were not previously inclined to "smoke a doobie" or otherwise partake in the current stigma.

Over the next 5-10 years cannabis will permeate our social fabric to such a degree that it's consumption will be considered normal and celebrated (much like alcohol currently). In this new environment of acceptance, it will be increasingly difficult for pilots (or other safety related personnel) to rationalise their continued abstinence.

Transport Canada's default "zero tolerance" policy is an easy, if not predictable, position for an agency struggling to maintain relevance in the face of relentless budgetary cuts. Unfortunately their position does not recognise the current reality or that of the future. We have roughly 13,000 ATPL's in this country. A good number of them already consume cannabis and I'd argue a good deal more will as cannabis becomes increasingly normalised. In the perfect world Transport Canada would take the initiative to determine what is impairment, and apply guidelines for appropriate use. Unfortunately I think a number of pilots will lose their licence and/or their jobs before we see significant regulatory progress.

While I support cannabis legalisation it is undoubtedly exposing our profession to a large regulatory risk. I would caution all pilots to refrain from cannabis use until firm guidelines are in place on an international level. With legalisation and in the absence of random testing one could arguably be tempted to partake. However I would remind you that it is still federally illegal in the US and any random checks conducted on their soil would currently bar you from entering for life. And what good is an airline pilot if they cannot travel to the US?
I think your wrong, time will tell.
---------- ADS -----------
 
av8ts
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:31 am

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by av8ts »

digits_ wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:28 pm
Tanker299 wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:38 am anyone who's a non smoker tried a we lil dip or a puff. Head rush and impaired for bit.
I can honestly say I know more people that did NOT try weed or cigarettes, than people who DID try it. Some posts make it sound like whole Canada is secretly smoking and drinking in their basements. I'd be surprised...
We have lived quite a different life. I don’t think I know anyone who hasn’t tried one or both
---------- ADS -----------
 
annonyous123
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:07 am

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by annonyous123 »

digits_ wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:28 pm
Tanker299 wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:38 am anyone who's a non smoker tried a we lil dip or a puff. Head rush and impaired for bit.
Nope. Never tried it, don't have the urge.

And that's one of the problems: weed, alcohol, tobacco are way too often viewed through rose colored "i am cool" glasses, often by people who can't resist the urge. If you can't resist the urge, but you try to succesfully portray the image that "everyone at least tried it once", it makes you look less weak and feel less guilty. It is also very easy to find likeminded people to reinforce the believe that everyone tried it.

I can honestly say I know more people that did NOT try weed or cigarettes, than people who DID try it. Some posts make it sound like whole Canada is secretly smoking and drinking in their basements. I'd be surprised...

Wow, I can tell you out of my circle of friends, whom are Dr.'s, Lawyers, Firemen, ATC all are dabbing into something or another, ........there is a whole lot worse going on then consuming some Marijuana. You would be very surprised what people are into, I'd guess they are keeping it from you based on your attitude towards it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Meatservo
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2565
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:07 pm
Location: Negative sequencial vortex

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by Meatservo »

I just wish that there was more knowledge on the subject of what constitutes "impairment". Maybe one of the good things to come from legalization will be more legitimate research on the subject. The reasons I abstain from consuming cannabis, are threefold: One: I do not like smoking. It doesn't matter what plant you're burning, smoking will give you lung disease. Two: I have to admit, it's the stigma currently surrounding cannabis. I live in a small community, and I don't want to be known as "the dope smoking pilot". Three, from observing friends who smoke cannabis, I am not sure what it actually does to your brain. All I have is anecdotal evidence, as well as my own observations. There are many people who don't smoke very often and you would never know. But everybody knows a few people who smoke a lot, and to me they kind of act "high" even when I'm pretty sure they're not... you know, the half-lidded eyes, the slow, relaxed way they talk, they don't seem to be able to remember to close their mouths when they aren't talking. What is that? Is that brain damage? Is it simply an artifact of "Cannabis culture", as in, it's just part of their persona? Is it just that their habit actually DOES make them really relaxed?

I'm not trying to discriminate against anyone, but I just can't get satisfactory data about what will happen to my brain if I decide that I really like one of the new, legal, cannabis drinks, for instance. It sure sounds nice, a drink that makes me laugh and have fun and doesn't give me a hangover.

It's not that alcohol abuse doesn't do something to your brain: of course it does. It's just that the amount you need to drink in order to inflict permanent damage is pretty extreme. People who stay below that threshold can continue to function indefinitely, and we have centuries of evidence to prove this. I suspect (and this is just a theory) that there must be a similar threshold with cannabis: I know lots of people from all walks of life who will have a puff every now and then, or at the week-end, or who smoke the low-grade stems-and-seeds their friends grow in a pot on the back porch... and they seem totally unimpaired. How much of this stuff do you need to smoke, over what period of time, before you start to display that stereotypical slack-jawed slow-talking thing even when you're not actually high? And again, is that a real thing, or just an unkind stereotype? I know a couple of pilots who look and talk like that, and there is also no doubt in my mind that they are cannabis-smokers: I've seen them. They also are just fine at their jobs. What is the threshold here, between bouncing back to normal after a sporadic recreational use, and beginning to show the stereotypical "dopey"characteristics? I don't want to wind up like that. And I'm not totally convinced it isn't a real phenomenon.

I think I'll watch, and wait, for a while longer before deciding to join "Cannabis Culture". I'm still down for some free concert tickets though, thanks, Aurora!
---------- ADS -----------
 
If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself
cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1632
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by cncpc »

Meatservo wrote: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:52 am I just wish that there was more knowledge on the subject of what constitutes "impairment". Maybe one of the good things to come from legalization will be more legitimate research on the subject. The reasons I abstain from consuming cannabis, are threefold: One: I do not like smoking. It doesn't matter what plant you're burning, smoking will give you lung disease. Two: I have to admit, it's the stigma currently surrounding cannabis. I live in a small community, and I don't want to be known as "the dope smoking pilot". Three, from observing friends who smoke cannabis, I am not sure what it actually does to your brain. All I have is anecdotal evidence, as well as my own observations. There are many people who don't smoke very often and you would never know. But everybody knows a few people who smoke a lot, and to me they kind of act "high" even when I'm pretty sure they're not... you know, the half-lidded eyes, the slow, relaxed way they talk, they don't seem to be able to remember to close their mouths when they aren't talking. What is that? Is that brain damage? Is it simply an artifact of "Cannabis culture", as in, it's just part of their persona? Is it just that their habit actually DOES make them really relaxed?

I'm not trying to discriminate against anyone, but I just can't get satisfactory data about what will happen to my brain if I decide that I really like one of the new, legal, cannabis drinks, for instance. It sure sounds nice, a drink that makes me laugh and have fun and doesn't give me a hangover.

It's not that alcohol abuse doesn't do something to your brain: of course it does. It's just that the amount you need to drink in order to inflict permanent damage is pretty extreme. People who stay below that threshold can continue to function indefinitely, and we have centuries of evidence to prove this. I suspect (and this is just a theory) that there must be a similar threshold with cannabis: I know lots of people from all walks of life who will have a puff every now and then, or at the week-end, or who smoke the low-grade stems-and-seeds their friends grow in a pot on the back porch... and they seem totally unimpaired. How much of this stuff do you need to smoke, over what period of time, before you start to display that stereotypical slack-jawed slow-talking thing even when you're not actually high? And again, is that a real thing, or just an unkind stereotype? I know a couple of pilots who look and talk like that, and there is also no doubt in my mind that they are cannabis-smokers: I've seen them. They also are just fine at their jobs. What is the threshold here, between bouncing back to normal after a sporadic recreational use, and beginning to show the stereotypical "dopey"characteristics? I don't want to wind up like that. And I'm not totally convinced it isn't a real phenomenon.

I think I'll watch, and wait, for a while longer before deciding to join "Cannabis Culture". I'm still down for some free concert tickets though, thanks, Aurora!
That's a hell of a post.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.
User avatar
youhavecontrol
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 397
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:17 am

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by youhavecontrol »

Meatservo wrote: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:52 am Three, from observing friends who smoke cannabis, I am not sure what it actually does to your brain. All I have is anecdotal evidence, as well as my own observations.
Agreed. They say a person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument. People say a lot of things about how good pot is, and I won't argue against what it can do for PTSD and health problems, but I've never had the desire to touch it after what I've seen it do to the minds of people I know who smoke it regularly. It's excruciatingly hard to carry on a conversation with them. I watched pot turn two of my closes friends into total sh*theads in high school.
---------- ADS -----------
 
"I found that Right Rudder you kept asking for."
C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by C.W.E. »

I also have a couple of close relatives who were like missionaries spreading the gospel of the wonders of smoking pot and as time passed they became zombies who couldn't remember to tie their shoes.

Therefore I believe it can be a very dangerous substance to use.

The same of course holds true for excessive use of alcohol.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
AirFrame
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by AirFrame »

Meatservo wrote: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:52 amI just wish that there was more knowledge on the subject of what constitutes "impairment". Maybe one of the good things to come from legalization will be more legitimate research on the subject.
To be fair, there's been decades of research on cannabis usage, across all walks of life. If you want more reading, here's one place to start some research (and yes, I know norml is a pro-cannabis site, but you can evaluate the research on the merits of the institutions that conducted it, not the pro-weed messenger showing it to you): http://norml.org/library
What is the threshold here, between bouncing back to normal after a sporadic recreational use, and beginning to show the stereotypical "dopey"characteristics? I don't want to wind up like that. And I'm not totally convinced it isn't a real phenomenon.
That's a good question. Also consider that correlation does not guarantee causation... I know some "dopey" people who I am 99.999% sure have never touched a leaf of weed in their entire life. That's just who they are naturally.
youhavecontrol wrote:They say a person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument.
Sadly, a person with a placebo-induced experience can be equally convinced that their experience is real. They're at the mercy of no one, but they can still be wrong.

I'm not a user, but I am following the change in legislation from the sidelines with curiosity (about the effects of the legislation, not about how quickly I can start a regimen of THC).
---------- ADS -----------
 
C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

Post by C.W.E. »

What is T.C.'s position on pilots flying for an airline while using doctor prescribed cannabis?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”