Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

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FOD_Vacuum
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Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by FOD_Vacuum » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:10 pm

With all the nitty bitty threads about "oh this operator sucks" or "for the love of god, please tell me they pay more" to "where can I get a good lifestyle", my conclusion is this: the industry in Canada is a complete and utter flop. The pay is substandard, the cost of living is insane, taxes are sky high and lifestyle, well what is lifestyle? If you know of an operator that pays well with a good lifestyle where you can actually pay off your debt, live a financially rewarding life and buy a home, be there with your kids, point me in the right direction.

Elsewhere in the world, operators are paying double, if not triple of what Canadian companies are paying. Trying to find a good lifestyle combined with good paying jobs are far fetched. The reality is that regional airline life is not worthy of a long term career and lets be real here, not everyone is going to get on with AC. So what is everyone else going to do? What are your alternate plans? Are you going to be continuing to rake in a mere $50-80k per year at the regionals for the rest of your life living in overpriced hubs, or are you thinking of going overseas perhaps to find something more financially rewarding? Many of the regional pilots live with roommates, are overworked, live with mom or dad in the basement because they can't afford to give more than half their paycheck towards rent. $200-300k tax free abroad as a skipper (or FO) on a jet living in warmer places than Canada where the living costs are far less with almost free health insurance-seems very appealing to me. No I did not get an AC PFO-I just don't like the idea of getting sub par pay flying for the Canadian flag carrier living in an expensive city like Toronto, Calgary or Vancouver. It is not a pilot shortage-it is a pay/lifestyle shortage/issue, and more people are informed and smart these days to not get into aviation as they see that other industries are far more rewarding. Food for thought. :smt014
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:59 am

Totally agree. $55,000 starting pay at our flag carrier is an absolute disgrace. If the Americans were to open the floodgates to pilots, the Canadian Aviation scene would be a ghostown.
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telex
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by telex » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:30 am

Are you current on a type that is in demand?

If so, apply early as the recruitment process can take six months or more.

When you say "warmer places than Canada" make sure you can tolerate it when it feels like mid 50s C.

Budget $15000-17000 USD per kid per year for school.

Rent will well exceed your mortgage.

A few hours with a doc cost me nearly $1000. Insurance covered $40.

When locals are hired on three month contracts and expats start getting terminated make sure you have a plan b.

That's Shanghai on the right with an air quality index of 430. Anything over 301 is hazardous.

Image

Make sure you know what you're getting into.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Roadrunnersmother » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:24 am

FOD_Vacuum wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:10 pm
With all the nitty bitty threads about "oh this operator sucks" or "for the love of god, please tell me they pay more" to "where can I get a good lifestyle", my conclusion is this: the industry in Canada is a complete and utter flop. The pay is substandard, the cost of living is insane, taxes are sky high and lifestyle, well what is lifestyle? If you know of an operator that pays well with a good lifestyle where you can actually pay off your debt, live a financially rewarding life and buy a home, be there with your kids, point me in the right direction.

Elsewhere in the world, operators are paying double, if not triple of what Canadian companies are paying. Trying to find a good lifestyle combined with good paying jobs are far fetched. The reality is that regional airline life is not worthy of a long term career and lets be real here, not everyone is going to get on with AC. So what is everyone else going to do? What are your alternate plans? Are you going to be continuing to rake in a mere $50-80k per year at the regionals for the rest of your life living in overpriced hubs, or are you thinking of going overseas perhaps to find something more financially rewarding? Many of the regional pilots live with roommates, are overworked, live with mom or dad in the basement because they can't afford to give more than half their paycheck towards rent. $200-300k tax free abroad as a skipper (or FO) on a jet living in warmer places than Canada where the living costs are far less with almost free health insurance-seems very appealing to me. No I did not get an AC PFO-I just don't like the idea of getting sub par pay flying for the Canadian flag carrier living in an expensive city like Toronto, Calgary or Vancouver. It is not a pilot shortage-it is a pay/lifestyle shortage/issue, and more people are informed and smart these days to not get into aviation as they see that other industries are far more rewarding. Food for thought. :smt014
Any statistics on the number of retired airline pilots who are homeless?
There are a large number of homeless Veterans.
Airline pilots have nothing to complain about when there are homeless guys/gals out there who had bullets whiz by their heads to give you continued freedom.
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Anticyclone
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Anticyclone » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:45 am

telex wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:30 am
Are you current on a type that is in demand?

If so, apply early as the recruitment process can take six months or more.

When you say "warmer places than Canada" make sure you can tolerate it when it feels like mid 50s C.

Budget $15000-17000 USD per kid per year for school.

Rent will well exceed your mortgage.

A few hours with a doc cost me nearly $1000. Insurance covered $40.

When locals are hired on three month contracts and expats start getting terminated make sure you have a plan b.

That's Shanghai on the right with an air quality index of 430. Anything over 301 is hazardous.

Image

Make sure you know what you're getting into.
FOD is absolutely wright, I'm not sure what you thought when a warmer climat was mentionned but the air in the warmer climat that i know is as healthy as the air in Canada.

Kids school is taken care of (5 stars western education).

Rent is taken care of, you will choose between a 5 BR villa or a 5 star condo with a privat beach (ordinary beaches are as good as the privat ones).

Doc is covered as well as 80% of the medicines.

Yes locals are being hired at a greater pace than 10 years ago but you will still have a job in 2040 if you don't Fcuk up too much :partyman: :weedman:

That's only me. cheers.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by av8ts » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:28 am

I’m a Captain at Jazz. Yes a Canadian regional airline. With my and my spouses pay we are doing awesome. I really am living the dream, thanks anyway
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by bearitus » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:33 am

I am an FO for a regional and run my own business on the side and still struggle to support my family in Toronto. I'm considering ditching the whole airline dream and going back to my software engineering career.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Roadrunnersmother » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:45 am

bearitus wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:33 am
I am an FO for a regional and run my own business on the side and still struggle to support my family in Toronto. I'm considering ditching the whole airline dream and going back to my software engineering career.
Living beyond ones means is usually the cause of struggle now days. For example I bet you and your partner each have a cell phone where as years ago, families only had one landline phone. There's hundreds of dollars that could be saved per year.
Don't start a family if you can't afford it is another option.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Heliian » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:54 am

bearitus wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:33 am
Toronto
There's your problem, too expensive.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Kaykay » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:07 am

Home is home for me. I doubt very much whether you could convince me to leave Canada (depending where but most places are a no for me).

I enjoy what I do, where I live, and I have a good quality of life. The key is living within your means and I've learned that the hard way once already. I do however agree with FOD's last remark; I think when many people realize how much it costs to get your training done versus what the return is like for the first while, they are very likely to seek out something else unless they are beyond certain that this is what they want to do.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Anticyclone » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:15 pm

Roadrunnersmother wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:45 am
bearitus wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:33 am
I am an FO for a regional and run my own business on the side and still struggle to support my family in Toronto. I'm considering ditching the whole airline dream and going back to my software engineering career.
Living beyond ones means is usually the cause of struggle now days. For example I bet you and your partner each have a cell phone where as years ago, families only had one landline phone. There's hundreds of dollars that could be saved per year.
Don't start a family if you can't afford it is another option.
A Pilot has to be able to afford a cell phone with whatever data he needs and should be able to live anywhere he wishes in his country this isn't living beyond his means and he has to be able to afford whatever reasonable stuff he needs without counting his yellow coins, if you want to live miserably and help drag the industry down is your problem but don't lecture anybody that want's to live decently.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Roadrunnersmother » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:25 pm

Anticyclone wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:15 pm
Roadrunnersmother wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:45 am
bearitus wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:33 am
I am an FO for a regional and run my own business on the side and still struggle to support my family in Toronto. I'm considering ditching the whole airline dream and going back to my software engineering career.
Living beyond ones means is usually the cause of struggle now days. For example I bet you and your partner each have a cell phone where as years ago, families only had one landline phone. There's hundreds of dollars that could be saved per year.
Don't start a family if you can't afford it is another option.
A Pilot has to be able to afford a cell phone with whatever data he needs this isn't living beyond his means and he has to be able to afford whatever reasonable stuff he needs without counting his yellow coins, if you want to live miserably and help drag the industry down is your problem but don't lecture anybody that want's to live decently.
Did you bring this up with your employer?
Others are doing well, you are in the minority.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Anticyclone » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:49 pm

Roadrunnersmother wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:25 pm
Anticyclone wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:15 pm
Roadrunnersmother wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:45 am


Living beyond ones means is usually the cause of struggle now days. For example I bet you and your partner each have a cell phone where as years ago, families only had one landline phone. There's hundreds of dollars that could be saved per year.
Don't start a family if you can't afford it is another option.
A Pilot has to be able to afford a cell phone with whatever data he needs this isn't living beyond his means and he has to be able to afford whatever reasonable stuff he needs without counting his yellow coins, if you want to live miserably and help drag the industry down is your problem but don't lecture anybody that want's to live decently.
Did you bring this up with your employer?
Others are doing well, you are in the minority.
Absolutely i told him i don't work for peanuts and left with no job to go to, believe it or not !
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FOD
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by FOD » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:12 pm

Whoaah careful there fellas. Let's not get our FOD's confused.

Canada is F&(%$k'd, if you value success and personal improvement and have the resources to make a move abroad, then do so. It will change your life forever. But when you do, leave behind the mis-guided notion that your beloved Canada is the end all be all of all things. Canada is an upgrade for those who are arriving from shitholes. It is a quagmire for anyone who is grasping at the old "values" by which it was founded. And it is a prison for those who are committed to ignoring what it actually has become. Elevated yourself. You are a professional with a skill set that is in high demand in many places on EARTH. It can be rewarding if you have the mettle. It can be a disaster if you go at it half-assed. Like anything else, you get out of it what you put into it. I am 2 years into my overseas adventure and it has been nothing but great. I am a much better person for having escaped the debt trap, marriage trap and insane tax trap. You must exercise your skills as an excellent commander and make a well informed decision when you go. Take a good long look at yourself, and your family and determine what you are really capable of doing.

Good luck to you, hope you find what you are looking for.

FOD
Anticyclone wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:45 am
telex wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:30 am
Are you current on a type that is in demand?

If so, apply early as the recruitment process can take six months or more.

When you say "warmer places than Canada" make sure you can tolerate it when it feels like mid 50s C.

Budget $15000-17000 USD per kid per year for school.

Rent will well exceed your mortgage.

A few hours with a doc cost me nearly $1000. Insurance covered $40.

When locals are hired on three month contracts and expats start getting terminated make sure you have a plan b.

That's Shanghai on the right with an air quality index of 430. Anything over 301 is hazardous.

Image

Make sure you know what you're getting into.
FOD is absolutely wright, I'm not sure what you thought when a warmer climat was mentionned but the air in the warmer climat that i know is as healthy as the air in Canada.

Kids school is taken care of (5 stars western education).

Rent is taken care of, you will choose between a 5 BR villa or a 5 star condo with a privat beach (ordinary beaches are as good as the privat ones).

Doc is covered as well as 80% of the medicines.

Yes locals are being hired at a greater pace than 10 years ago but you will still have a job in 2040 if you don't Fcuk up too much :partyman: :weedman:

That's only me. cheers.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Jumbo744 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:46 am

Roadrunnersmother wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:45 am
bearitus wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:33 am
I am an FO for a regional and run my own business on the side and still struggle to support my family in Toronto. I'm considering ditching the whole airline dream and going back to my software engineering career.
Living beyond ones means is usually the cause of struggle now days. For example I bet you and your partner each have a cell phone where as years ago, families only had one landline phone. There's hundreds of dollars that could be saved per year.
Don't start a family if you can't afford it is another option.
Are you serious? You are saying that they should share 1 cell phone? How is that possible? especially for a pilot who is away half of the month and needs to keep in touch with his partner?

And you think this is normal for a pilot to not being able to afford 2 cell phones? WTF!! your standard is very low. Right, Let's all downgrade our lifestyles to live with the @#@?%&# salaries offered by the regionals while the CEOs are making millions.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by groundpilot » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:11 am

Both FODs,

Couldn’t agree more.

Even at AC, it’s a joke. 4 years flat pay, Toronto & Vancouver have been sold to China. I don’t know how people do it without commuting. I assume mommy and daddy paid for the flight training and/or passed down the real estate boom money.

Honestly, finding a place to rent is like going on a diamond search expedition and when you find one, you’re paying big bucks. At $40k/yr, with student loans, how would you survive.

My friends at Delta, make much more and in metros like Atlanta, have beautiful houses at $400k.

Canada is a joke!
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by ActionAxson » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:54 am

Jumbo744 wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:46 am
Roadrunnersmother wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:45 am
bearitus wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:33 am
I am an FO for a regional and run my own business on the side and still struggle to support my family in Toronto. I'm considering ditching the whole airline dream and going back to my software engineering career.
Living beyond ones means is usually the cause of struggle now days. For example I bet you and your partner each have a cell phone where as years ago, families only had one landline phone. There's hundreds of dollars that could be saved per year.
Don't start a family if you can't afford it is another option.
Are you serious? You are saying that they should share 1 cell phone? How is that possible? especially for a pilot who is away half of the month and needs to keep in touch with his partner?

And you think this is normal for a pilot to not being able to afford 2 cell phones? WTF!! your standard is very low. Right, Let's all downgrade our lifestyles to live with the @#@?%&# salaries offered by the regionals while the CEOs are making millions.

RoadRunner is an obvious troll as seen in the "Huge discouragement thread". He is the reincarnation of that Nicky Nick character from a couple years ago.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Anticyclone » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:58 pm

ActionAxson wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:54 am
Jumbo744 wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:46 am
Roadrunnersmother wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:45 am


Living beyond ones means is usually the cause of struggle now days. For example I bet you and your partner each have a cell phone where as years ago, families only had one landline phone. There's hundreds of dollars that could be saved per year.
Don't start a family if you can't afford it is another option.
Are you serious? You are saying that they should share 1 cell phone? How is that possible? especially for a pilot who is away half of the month and needs to keep in touch with his partner?

And you think this is normal for a pilot to not being able to afford 2 cell phones? WTF!! your standard is very low. Right, Let's all downgrade our lifestyles to live with the @#@?%&# salaries offered by the regionals while the CEOs are making millions.

RoadRunner is an obvious troll as seen in the "Huge discouragement thread". He is the reincarnation of that Nicky Nick character from a couple years ago.
:lol: :lol: :toimonster:
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Inverted2 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:19 pm

I've made over 150k/yr at Jazz for the past 3 years. Would I like to make more? Sure but I'm living comfortably. I live where I want to be. Don't go through more than 1.5 time zones in a day (thanks NFLD!) Sure there's big money overseas but there's trade offs.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by av8ts » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:23 pm

Canada is an amazing country and I feel very privileged to live and work here. The only other place I would even consider working is Western Europe
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Eric Janson » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:31 pm

FOD_Vacuum wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:10 pm
Elsewhere in the world, operators are paying double, if not triple of what Canadian companies are paying. Trying to find a good lifestyle combined with good paying jobs are far fetched. The reality is that regional airline life is not worthy of a long term career and lets be real here, not everyone is going to get on with AC. So what is everyone else going to do? What are your alternate plans? Are you going to be continuing to rake in a mere $50-80k per year at the regionals for the rest of your life living in overpriced hubs, or are you thinking of going overseas perhaps to find something more financially rewarding? Many of the regional pilots live with roommates, are overworked, live with mom or dad in the basement because they can't afford to give more than half their paycheck towards rent. $200-300k tax free abroad as a skipper (or FO) on a jet living in warmer places than Canada where the living costs are far less with almost free health insurance-seems very appealing to me. No I did not get an AC PFO-I just don't like the idea of getting sub par pay flying for the Canadian flag carrier living in an expensive city like Toronto, Calgary or Vancouver. It is not a pilot shortage-it is a pay/lifestyle shortage/issue, and more people are informed and smart these days to not get into aviation as they see that other industries are far more rewarding. Food for thought. :smt014
You paint a very idealised picture of life overseas. If it was so easy as you seem to think we'd all be doing it.

I made a lot less than $200K working in S Asia - but I did pay off all debt and my mortgage. I keep hearing about how you can work for 5 years in China and then retire - funny I've never met anyone that's done this or heard about anyone that's done this either.

Lifestyle can have its challenges depending on location - I was able to adapt. Others couldn't last 6 months.

As stated previously do your research and know what you're getting into.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Ki-ll » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:12 am

FOD wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:12 pm
Whoaah careful there fellas. Let's not get our FOD's confused.

Canada is F&(%$k'd, if you value success and personal improvement and have the resources to make a move abroad, then do so. It will change your life forever. But when you do, leave behind the mis-guided notion that your beloved Canada is the end all be all of all things. Canada is an upgrade for those who are arriving from shitholes. It is a quagmire for anyone who is grasping at the old "values" by which it was founded. And it is a prison for those who are committed to ignoring what it actually has become. Elevated yourself. You are a professional with a skill set that is in high demand in many places on EARTH. It can be rewarding if you have the mettle. It can be a disaster if you go at it half-assed. Like anything else, you get out of it what you put into it. I am 2 years into my overseas adventure and it has been nothing but great. I am a much better person for having escaped the debt trap, marriage trap and insane tax trap. You must exercise your skills as an excellent commander and make a well informed decision when you go. Take a good long look at yourself, and your family and determine what you are really capable of doing.

Good luck to you, hope you find what you are looking for.

FOD
So when the shit hits the fan wherever it is that you are, which passport will you dust off then? Where will your allegiances lie at that point? I hope not in, and I quote you "F&(%$k'd" Canada.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Anticyclone » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:05 am

Inverted2 wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:19 pm
I've made over 150k/yr at Jazz for the past 3 years. Would I like to make more? Sure but I'm living comfortably. I live where I want to be. Don't go through more than 1.5 time zones in a day (thanks NFLD!) Sure there's big money overseas but there's trade offs.
Do you mind letting others know how you reached 150K because i would have been the happiest man in the world should i had half of that, so please don't advertise the 150K as if it was standard.

Cheers.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by av8ts » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:51 am

Jazz Capt working zero days off. 129,000 last year
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Lightchop » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:51 am

Anticyclone wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:05 am
Inverted2 wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:19 pm
I've made over 150k/yr at Jazz for the past 3 years. Would I like to make more? Sure but I'm living comfortably. I live where I want to be. Don't go through more than 1.5 time zones in a day (thanks NFLD!) Sure there's big money overseas but there's trade offs.

Do you mind letting others know how you reached 150K because i would have been the happiest man in the world should i had half of that, so please don't advertise the 150K as if it was standard.

Cheers.
I'm a year one Captain and will make over $90k gross this year, without per diems. That's with a little bit of OT here and there. And includes my actually taking my 4 weeks of vacation. So yeah, it's pretty normal. Captains higher on the pay scale can easily make high 100s and many do. I know guys making closer to 200k although they work too much.
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