Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

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TheStig
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by TheStig » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:01 pm

Just for discussions sake I'm going to weigh in. I believe this is one of the best periods in the past 3 decades to be in aviation and painting the entire country with one brush because of personal dissatisfaction isn't fair or accurate.

Starting wages at airlines are low, but they are double what they were in the 90's (if not triple) and the pathway through the industry is as quick and safe as its been since anyone flying today can remember. Affordability in YVR, YYZ is an issue for everyone in those cities, most pilots seem to live within an hours commute which they do once or twice a week from an affordable area.

I'd always wanted to fly for an airline and was prepared to take a pay cut and saw it as an investment in long term career earnings. The career path is the same for everyone, gain experience, use experience to earn more money, take a pay cut to fly for an airline. The comments from those who don't take that path are always the same, "I have 5000 hours and earn $80,000 (or more) a year, I'm not going to apply to Airline XYZ..." That's fine, I hope they enjoy a rewarding career, but others do take the pay cut and in a few years they will be enjoying higher pay, better job security and benefits and lifestyle. The longer a pilot holds out, the harder it gets, families grow more expensive. At least airlines aren't going bankrupt at the same rate were 20 years ago, or pilots who thought they'd taken their last pay cut once again found themselves at the bottom of a seniority list earning dirt pay.

Taking a step back for two steps forward is messed up, I have lots of friends outside aviation who have the same experience in their careers, but its usually after they've been laid off, let go, restructured, whatever..They don't spend much time ranting on the internet about it. I've spent a lot of my life 'away' from the rest of my life outside of work and have missed lots of parties, holidays, and important events, but I love my job and the career I've had up to this point. Aviation isn't perfect but it provided me with a good living and great friends and I know lots of others who agree. I hope things turn around for anyone who isn't satisfied with their careers as it has a profound impact on a persons quality of life.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Anticyclone » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:37 pm

Lightchop wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:51 am
Anticyclone wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:05 am
Inverted2 wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:19 pm
I've made over 150k/yr at Jazz for the past 3 years. Would I like to make more? Sure but I'm living comfortably. I live where I want to be. Don't go through more than 1.5 time zones in a day (thanks NFLD!) Sure there's big money overseas but there's trade offs.

Do you mind letting others know how you reached 150K because i would have been the happiest man in the world should i had half of that, so please don't advertise the 150K as if it was standard.

Cheers.
I'm a year one Captain and will make over $90k gross this year, without per diems. That's with a little bit of OT here and there. And includes my actually taking my 4 weeks of vacation. So yeah, it's pretty normal. Captains higher on the pay scale can easily make high 100s and many do. I know guys making closer to 200k although they work too much.
Before you make it to 1st year cpt you need to sit right for 2-3 years making 36K !! this is my point.
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Lightchop
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Lightchop » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:09 pm

Anticyclone wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:37 pm
Lightchop wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:51 am
Anticyclone wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:05 am



Do you mind letting others know how you reached 150K because i would have been the happiest man in the world should i had half of that, so please don't advertise the 150K as if it was standard.

Cheers.
I'm a year one Captain and will make over $90k gross this year, without per diems. That's with a little bit of OT here and there. And includes my actually taking my 4 weeks of vacation. So yeah, it's pretty normal. Captains higher on the pay scale can easily make high 100s and many do. I know guys making closer to 200k although they work too much.
Before you make it to 1st year cpt you need to sit right for 2-3 years making 36K !! this is my point.
I was awarded left seat at 10 months from initial hire date, and trained in less than a year of actually flying (post initial training).
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ant_321
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by ant_321 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:24 am

The original poster mentioned looking into other fields that will be more rewarding. I always find this outlook interesting. I think most people think that all the "big money" careers (engineer, lawyer, etc) make much more than they actually do. I make more money than my good friend who is an engineer, a family member who is a lawyer and if you consider money made vs time, just as much as a friend who is a GP. Gotta work 100 hr weeks to pay off that 200k in med school dept.

I will be the first to agree that we are under paid in Canada when considering the global market. And I agree that it is absolutely disgusting that starting pay at our flat carrier is about as much as a forklift operator makes in a lumber yard. With that said, with the way the industry is moving now you can get into good money pretty quick. I have been flying commercially for 7.5 years and will make about $160k this year on the second year of a 12 year scale. I normally work about 12 days a month.
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munzil
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by munzil » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:25 am

ant_321 wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:24 am
The original poster mentioned looking into other fields that will be more rewarding. I always find this outlook interesting. I think most people think that all the "big money" careers (engineer, lawyer, etc) make much more than they actually do. I make more money than my good friend who is an engineer, a family member who is a lawyer and if you consider money made vs time, just as much as a friend who is a GP. Gotta work 100 hr weeks to pay off that 200k in med school dept.

I will be the first to agree that we are under paid in Canada when considering the global market. And I agree that it is absolutely disgusting that starting pay at our flat carrier is about as much as a forklift operator makes in a lumber yard. With that said, with the way the industry is moving now you can get into good money pretty quick. I have been flying commercially for 7.5 years and will make about $160k this year on the second year of a 12 year scale. I normally work about 12 days a month.
Care to share you experiences and secrets of success? I have been in the industry 12 years now and only just making over 60k flying widebody. Obviously I'm doing something wrong if you are making that much.
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ant_321
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by ant_321 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:52 am

munzil wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:25 am
ant_321 wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:24 am
The original poster mentioned looking into other fields that will be more rewarding. I always find this outlook interesting. I think most people think that all the "big money" careers (engineer, lawyer, etc) make much more than they actually do. I make more money than my good friend who is an engineer, a family member who is a lawyer and if you consider money made vs time, just as much as a friend who is a GP. Gotta work 100 hr weeks to pay off that 200k in med school dept.

I will be the first to agree that we are under paid in Canada when considering the global market. And I agree that it is absolutely disgusting that starting pay at our flat carrier is about as much as a forklift operator makes in a lumber yard. With that said, with the way the industry is moving now you can get into good money pretty quick. I have been flying commercially for 7.5 years and will make about $160k this year on the second year of a 12 year scale. I normally work about 12 days a month.
Care to share you experiences and secrets of success? I have been in the industry 12 years now and only just making over 60k flying widebody. Obviously I'm doing something wrong if you are making that much.
I don't think I would say you are doing something wrong. The money will come if you are on a wide body.
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rudder
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by rudder » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:11 pm

There are several Jazz Captains regularly earning $200k+ on their T4’s. $200/hr overtime rate adds up fairly quickly. Having said that, these are top scale Capt.

The CDN industry certainly has it’s its problems. Average hourly pilot compensation is dramatically below comparable first world standards.

However, with several 24 year olds being hired at AC (vs average age 34 at US legacy carriers). There is total career earning potential well above $10 million available in Canada if you are in the right place a time the right time and were born in the 1990’s.
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Eric Janson
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Eric Janson » Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:01 pm

For those of you thinking of going to the Middle East.

https://www.pprune.org/middle-east/6117 ... ivity.html

Love the photos of Patriot Missile batteries being deployed in Abu Dhabi.

Houthis in Yemen have stated they will be targeting Abu Dhabi and have claimed a drone attack on the airport in Abu Dhabi. They have already launched Scuds at both Riyadh and Jeddah.

Things are going downhill rapidly in the Region and a lot of what is going on doesn't make the papers or is officially denied.
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Last edited by Eric Janson on Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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laminar
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by laminar » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:00 pm

Even 50-80k/year is pretty good pay for a pilot income. Making $150k/year is something I will probably never achieve in my lifetime.

Incomes I have made in the past:
-$40k/year as an aeronautical engineering technologist. Some of you may have flown aircraft with modifications and repairs I worked to approve.
-$10/hr as a first year automotive apprentice and after 4 years and $35k worth of tools I was making $90k/year. Not too much different than cost and time investment in a pilot career path.
-now I’m in law enforcement and wear a gun on my hip and am in an explosives unit to make $85k/year (started at $55k/year. I expect the unexpected every day with my well being and safety for that paycheque.
-my other half is a teacher with 2 degrees (7 years university) and 5 years teaching experience and is making 90k/year. Consider that 12 years into her teaching pathway to get to that level.
-none of my engineering friends are over $150k/year and the majority of them are around $80k with today’s economy.

Honestly, what the hell are you expecting?
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Diadem » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:48 pm

The cost of living in Canada is also substantially less than in most of western Europe and Australia; every list I've seen even has Canada ranked as more affordable than the US. Gas and food are substantially cheaper than Europe and Australia, and, even though a few cities are very expensive to buy real estate, there's an enormous amount of cheap property, because one thing we don't lack is land. Taxes might be higher here than the US, depending on which provinces and states you're comparing, but if you include the higher cost of benefits and insurance in the US you'll probably end up having more money deducted from your pay down there. My dad never made $150000/year, but he was smart with his money, and after he retired at 57 he bought a waterfront house on the West Coast. If you're having a hard time while you're earning over a hundred grand, you need to take a long, hard look at your finances.
As for Canadian pilots not making what our counterparts do in other countries, aside from the cost of living that's simply supply and demand at work. Few other countries produce as many pilots per capita as Canada, and most of the jobs here are with small operators; we don't have the same number of positions with airlines as Europe or the US. Australia would probably be the closest comparison, but they don't seem to churn out CPLs the way we have over the last couple of decades. There are still enough pilots to fill seats, but the experience levels are going way down, and once there literally aren't enough pilots to go around companies might start paying more; in the meantime, they'd rather hire a freshly-licenced pilot than pay an extra cent to keep one they already have.
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sicamore
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by sicamore » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:50 am

Diadem wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:48 pm
The cost of living in Canada is also substantially less than in most of western Europe and Australia; every list I've seen even has Canada ranked as more affordable than the US. Gas and food are substantially cheaper than Europe and Australia, and, even though a few cities are very expensive to buy real estate, there's an enormous amount of cheap property, because one thing we don't lack is land. Taxes might be higher here than the US, depending on which provinces and states you're comparing, but if you include the higher cost of benefits and insurance in the US you'll probably end up having more money deducted from your pay down there. My dad never made $150000/year, but he was smart with his money, and after he retired at 57 he bought a waterfront house on the West Coast. If you're having a hard time while you're earning over a hundred grand, you need to take a long, hard look at your finances.
As for Canadian pilots not making what our counterparts do in other countries, aside from the cost of living that's simply supply and demand at work. Few other countries produce as many pilots per capita as Canada, and most of the jobs here are with small operators; we don't have the same number of positions with airlines as Europe or the US. Australia would probably be the closest comparison, but they don't seem to churn out CPLs the way we have over the last couple of decades. There are still enough pilots to fill seats, but the experience levels are going way down, and once there literally aren't enough pilots to go around companies might start paying more; in the meantime, they'd rather hire a freshly-licenced pilot than pay an extra cent to keep one they already have.
You're tripping. Having lived in Canada, Europe and the US, it does depend where you are living. Yes new york, london and sydney are expensive. However you will get paid far more than here in Canada and the cost of living will not be much more than Toronto with most cases a house much cheaper. Mostly anywhere else in these places - the states especially are far cheaper than Canada, AND you will get paid a ton more than here.

I'd like to see your facts on more pilots being produced by capita. Australia as an example in population and size, the starting salary at Qantas is about 80k compared to 55 for Air Canada, with some operators paying over 100k for a FO starting salary.

I'd certainly agree with your final statement. We are seeing experience levels going down a lot and with some of the people filling left seat in a regional jet, I don't think it will be long before we see an 'adverse event'
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by flyingjerry » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:50 am

Diadem wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:48 pm
The cost of living in Canada is also substantially less than in most of western Europe and Australia; every list I've seen even has Canada ranked as more affordable than the US. Gas and food are substantially cheaper than Europe and Australia, and, even though a few cities are very expensive to buy real estate, there's an enormous amount of cheap property, because one thing we don't lack is land.
Having lived in Australia and Toronto, I have first hand experience that Australia being unaffordably expensive is a myth. Gas is less than 10cents more a liter than here, housing is cheaper to rent or buy, motorcycle insurance is FREE, there's no tax (edit: it's built into the price) and you don't tip so restaurants are roughly equal and they don't have to deal with sub 10 temperatures, ever.

Anyone under 30 should really go there on a working holiday visa.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by valleyboy » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:30 am

We sit hear and complain but at the end of the day pilots need to take on some of the responsibility for conditions in the industry. I know one simple solution, increase the requirement for an ATP in right seat of 705 aircraft. The present situation makes no sense to me. Reality check for pilots and airline companies.

Salary levels at the present time are likely on the low side but since the objections to bonds and the present market has forced companies to drop bonds, the only way to recover training costs is to initiate low starting salaries. It's the history of aviation in Canada, chasing the iron, and no morals and will dump a job as soon as something comes up that looks a little better. It is just human nature, it will never change so suck it up do you dues and you will possibly make a good living out of it. I did and I never worked for a level 1 carrier.

I also went through "international" wage parity issue when we had crews working in Europe. It was dealt with when we did a cost of living comparison. Ironically there were a few carriers in Europe paying for phones since have a phone was a condition of employment.

It is apparent that salaries have been lowered by the big world players (A,B and even C scales) and living in compounds in the sand box is difficult, especially on the partners left there while the other half is globe trotting and escaping to freedom.

Airlines want to make money and crews will always be the top target. If you want it better and you feel that you are underpaid and you have a collective agreement, drop the apathy and get involved. For the rookies, Unions are not magic. They are as good as the participation, sitting back and complaining never solves issues. Good agreements do not happen over night. It usually takes about 5 contracts to start seeing what you feel is reasonable. Take and average of 3 year agreements, well do the math.

The expectation of instant gratification and progression rates fired by a unusually high peak in the airline cycle could give the best reality check when we start surfing down the other side. I wonder to myself if the last generation of pilots is either the last or the 2nd last flying in level 1 -- automation marches on. Like Stone Masons, pilots are moving towards redundancy and will end up as a small skilled specialized group.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Jet Jockey » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:57 am

A career abroad can be a very good thing depending on the job you land.

Yes finding a good paying with good conditions job in Canada is perhaps harder to do because of the size of our country (population wise) and the need for air travel. Yes there are other countries out there where air travel is increasing and where there is a demand for outside pilots to "fill in" the positions until the locals get up to speed. As such they probably have better pay and conditions to attract foreigners but that's just a temporary solution.

I had the opportunity of flying for a Canadian regional who had a 3 year contract with a French regional for Air France from 1989 to 1992 and it was not only a great experience but it paid extremely well for those days. I doubt any European opportunity like that is available today.

I for one, would not like a job in the sandbox (heard too many stories from people that are doing it now or in the past). Perhaps I could live in Hong Kong working on a business jet with a good contract (have friends doing it now) but regardless of where you work/live abroad you have to be able to adapt to their culture and way of doing things which may not be easy especially if you have a family.

As for now I'm happy where I am (in my 28th year). I am well compensated with a very good salary (232K last year), 5 weeks vacation a year (which I have a hard time taking because I have so many days off). The down side is I only flew about 250 hours last year. :-)
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by complexintentions » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:13 am

Sweeping generalizations will of course camouflage the outliers, the seriously expensive places in any given country. But to suggest that Canada is cheaper than the US, or you will make less in the United States flying like for like, is laughably stupid.

If you choose to not take a job in the US for whatever political/ideological nonsense you think you know, that's fine, you're all woke and shit, good for you. But economically there's no comparison. Yes, even with the super-duper awesome socialized healthcare in Canada.

The Middle East? You're about a million times more likely to die on Sheik Zayed Road in a car accident than a DRONE ATTACK! lol The area has NEVER been stable, when I worked there they had Israeli F-16's cruising low-level up the Gulf regularly, drilling for raids on Iranian nuclear facilities. That makes for a very jumpy and unhappy neighbour, just 30 miles across the water. I'm sure people know Iran is much closer to the UAE and orders of magnitude more militarily capable than Yemen? Still went, made a pile, had a blast. Never worried for a second. And still motoring along, just fine thanks.

Again, go there, don't go there, do whatever you want. But try to make a rational decision, not an emotional one based on fear, or the boringly predictable shit-slinging by those who've never lived there a day in their lives. The crushing EK rosters are way more scary than the war in Yemen.

Incidentally far more people get gunned down in Toronto these days than are dying in UAE drone attacks. Not an opinion, a verifiable fact with y'know, numbers and such.

Always keep some perspective.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Diadem » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:34 am

It's amazing that so many of the pilots who complain about Canada and go overseas end up coming back here to work for companies like Swoop. Not many seem to go to the US despite the imcomparable economy, so obviously there's something about this country that has people come running back after a few years...
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Cat Driver » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:44 am

so obviously there's something about this country that has people come running back after a few years...
Could it be they were born here and their families live here and their government pensions are here etc?
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by complexintentions » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:44 am

Or possibly, don't have the right to live and work in the US, don'tcha think? Exactly what makes you think you're able to even collect stats on how many expats come back to Canada versus those who don't? Oh that's right, you can't.

I left the UAE and most definitely didn't move back to Canada. I actually did consider the Swoop job cause the self-righteous rhetoric from certain folks annoyed and amused me at the same time so I thought it could be funny to get a job there, sort of like farting at a funeral.

But I realized I didn't really want to be poor again and my tastes don't run to communism. Is it still complaining when you actually DO something instead of just running your mouth,(like your post)?
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by rudder » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:51 am

There are lots of pilots now in Canada that are Captains on Airbus, 737’s, EMB’s, CRJ’s in their 20’s. There was a time when that was unheard of due to career progression rates and hiring practices.

Right place - right time. Perhaps not a great era to have been in the airline business (CCAA, liquidations, mergers, etc) but it is certainly a great time to be getting in to the profession.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by flyzam » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:24 am

Diadem wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:34 am
It's amazing that so many of the pilots who complain about Canada and go overseas end up coming back here to work for companies like Swoop. Not many seem to go to the US despite the imcomparable economy, so obviously there's something about this country that has people come running back after a few years...
Typically it is because the wives want to come back and be with the family. Community and all that. Reason why I'm back, dragged by the heels kicking and screaming. Ask around, about 1 in 10 of the guys would prefer it overseas.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Eric Janson » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:14 pm

complexintentions wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:13 am
The Middle East? You're about a million times more likely to die on Sheik Zayed Road in a car accident than a DRONE ATTACK! lol The area has NEVER been stable, when I worked there they had Israeli F-16's cruising low-level up the Gulf regularly, drilling for raids on Iranian nuclear facilities. That makes for a very jumpy and unhappy neighbour, just 30 miles across the water. I'm sure people know Iran is much closer to the UAE and orders of magnitude more militarily capable than Yemen? Still went, made a pile, had a blast. Never worried for a second. And still motoring along, just fine thanks.

Again, go there, don't go there, do whatever you want. But try to make a rational decision, not an emotional one based on fear, or the boringly predictable shit-slinging by those who've never lived there a day in their lives. The crushing EK rosters are way more scary than the war in Yemen.

Incidentally far more people get gunned down in Toronto these days than are dying in UAE drone attacks. Not an opinion, a verifiable fact with y'know, numbers and such.

Always keep some perspective.
The war in Yemen was supposed to last 2 weeks - that was 3 years ago. Hardly surprising there is now some 'blowback'.

The issue isn't getting killed in a drone or Scud attack - obviously that's extremely unlikely. Anyway that never happened - the UAE government said so!

The Houthis have found a simple way to cause huge Economic damage to the UAE - classic asymmetric warfare.

Having to close airspace and delay/cancel flights will cost some serious $$. Not to mention all the passengers who will avoid transferring through the region. That will have consequences for anyone employed in the UAE.

I'd say this would be something to think about.
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by digits_ » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:06 pm

valleyboy wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:30 am
We sit hear and complain but at the end of the day pilots need to take on some of the responsibility for conditions in the industry. I know one simple solution, increase the requirement for an ATP in right seat of 705 aircraft. The present situation makes no sense to me. Reality check for pilots and airline companies.

Salary levels at the present time are likely on the low side but since the objections to bonds and the present market has forced companies to drop bonds, the only way to recover training costs is to initiate low starting salaries. It's the history of aviation in Canada, chasing the iron, and no morals and will dump a job as soon as something comes up that looks a little better. It is just human nature, it will never change so suck it up do you dues and you will possibly make a good living out of it. I did and I never worked for a level 1 carrier.
I agree it is part "our fault" as well, but mainly driven by unions. Unions have created a situation that is fighting the normal law of supply and demand, and if you browse through Western history, that usually doesn't end well.

The problem is the huge discrepancy in pay between a first year and a 30 year of seniority pilot. If you look at AC, roughly, the senior guy will/could make about 5 times as much as a year 1 guy, maybe even more? I understand that experience needs to be valued, but such a huge difference is unnecessary. You fly a plane from A to B, safely while adhering to SOPs. Experience is important for those freaky incidents that need to be handled, and to optimize the flight as much as possible. But how do you justify a 500% pay increase? Hard to say. Someone will chime in and mention supply and demand, basic economics, open markets etc. This may or may not be true, because of the unions. If things go well, pilots deserve more pay. Ok, great. Unions have a big say in which pilots get more pay. No surprise that senior guys get more of the salary raise than the junior guys. If things are going bad, airline is struggling, out come the creative hats: cut away at the junior guys by implementing new pay scales, new pension rules etc. All to protect the current employees and have them be overpaid in the struggling economy. If things go well again, what happens: everyone gets a pay raise, not just the junior guys who lost during the downturn. And so the cycle continues. During bad times the top level employees are safe, junior/new guys lose. During good times, everyone gets a raise.

That is not sustainable. Symptom of that is the Swoop debacle.

Even if you are in the system and starting to make good money, what would you prefer: a 30 year career with good wages varying let's say 50% from start to finish, or a 30 year career where you need to make all your money for retirement in the last 10 year? Would really suck if you lost your medical at year 20. No big retirement dreams for you!

One big argument will be: "if we don't pay our senior guys that much, they'll leave!". Would they though? If it was all about the money, the ones who would want to leave, would already have left for Asia/Middle East/.... So that leaves switching airlines within Canada. No senior guy will do that, since everything is pretty much governed by seniority, another cancerous system in aviation, but that's a rant for another day :wink:
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FOD_Vacuum
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by FOD_Vacuum » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:27 am

My point is that if Jazz, Encore or any other regional or airline FO job asks you to reside in one of the bases in Canada ie Vancouver, Calgary, Montreal or Toronto, the pay should be at or above the average monthly rent that it costs to reside there. Currently the wages do not reflect that whatsoever.

Lets take the average rent for a 1 bedroom place in the four cities/bases mentioned above, which happens to be $1615 per month. Basic life finances say you should spend no more than 30% of your monthly salary before taxes on rent or mortgage. $1615 times three is $4845. So to make ends meet comfortably or at least how basic finances say, you should be earning $58,140 per year. I don't see any FO starting salary close to this figure. If you get on with Jazz where you are not allowed to choose where they base you first hand, and they plock you into YVR or YYZ base, your average rent in those cities is $2015 a month for a one bedroom meaning your pay should be around $72k if you were to adhere to the 30% of your paycheck for rent. Something needs to change. Obviously, the average Jazz FO cant afford this unless they live with mum and dad in the basement, or live with roommates further away from the airport or use crash pads. This is not a sustainable life IMO nor is it an appealing one.

So conclusion: raise regional pilot FO pay to $72k minimum to reflect cost of living in Canada if you ask them to be prepared to live in any four domiciles that you operate out of. With many retirements on the horizon for Jazz, Westjet and AC, companies are going to save millions of dollars that they have been paying senior capt and FOs on the old pay scales, so how about re-allocate some of that money to higher starting wages. Just my two cents..
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Diadem
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Diadem » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:22 am

FOD_Vacuum wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:27 am
So conclusion: raise regional pilot FO pay to $72k minimum to reflect cost of living in Canada if you ask them to be prepared to live in any four domiciles that you operate out of. With many retirements on the horizon for Jazz, Westjet and AC, companies are going to save millions of dollars that they have been paying senior capt and FOs on the old pay scales, so how about re-allocate some of that money to higher starting wages. Just my two cents..
As long as there are pilots accepting those positions, there's no economic reason for them to do that. Wages won't go up until they can't fill seats, and they'll drop experience levels as long as they can before they offer more money.
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Cavalier44
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Cavalier44 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:40 am

Diadem wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:22 am
FOD_Vacuum wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:27 am
So conclusion: raise regional pilot FO pay to $72k minimum to reflect cost of living in Canada if you ask them to be prepared to live in any four domiciles that you operate out of. With many retirements on the horizon for Jazz, Westjet and AC, companies are going to save millions of dollars that they have been paying senior capt and FOs on the old pay scales, so how about re-allocate some of that money to higher starting wages. Just my two cents..
As long as there are pilots accepting those positions, there's no economic reason for them to do that. Wages won't go up until they can't fill seats, and they'll drop experience levels as long as they can before they offer more money.
This is why, as professional pilots in this country, we need to push strongly for more stringent rules on experience levels in our flight decks. At a minimum, we should be implementing a 1500 hour minimum for 705 FOs, as they have already done in the USA. As long as airlines can continue to lower the experience requirements in this country to meet demand, we'll never see the same improvements in working conditions as they have south of the border.

As a profession we need to come together and let our elected respresentatives know that these practices are unacceptable. Transport Canada has a history of being chronically ineffective in implementing new regulations (see the new fatigue regulations which have been in the works for years and are still unimplemented, and even when they are they'll still lag behind the USA and Europe). At the same time, organizations such as the Air Transport Association of Canada (ATAC) have run very effective smear campaigns on social media which have sought to discredit fatigue-based science and the implementation of new duty regs in this country. Whether it has to do with fatigue regs or exprience levels in our flight decks, we need to get organized as pilots and start telling our elected officials and the travelling public "No! These practices are unacceptable and cannot continue." Only then will we start to see the improvements in this industry that they've seen in the USA and elsewhere.
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