Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

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Anticyclone
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Anticyclone »

eyebrow737 wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:52 am
rudder wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:26 am
eyebrow737 wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:22 am This is only 3k above the previous salary for the past five years. The big jump is 1500 TT no jet. For a wide body. It was 4000 TT 1000 Jet.

So really just a lowering of requirements.
How many CDN air carriers are offering $70k or more to a new-hire FO?
As mentioned, cargojet has been doing it for the past 5 years (67k) It is wide body. The general international standard for a wide body FO is around $85k USD a year. That is $110k CAD.

If you want to compare to AC, sure, the pay at CJ is good -or.... better view is the pay at AC is a disgrace.
What is your international std ? coz i can tell you that my international std WDB is 300K CAD for 1st year FO too.

You know what eyebrow in french we call guys like you mauvaise langue.
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eyebrow737
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by eyebrow737 »

rudder wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:29 am I see it simply as the law of supply and demand in action.

CJ has commitments to its cargo customers and has decided it is not willing to inform customers of cancelled flights/shipments over a lack of crews.

Hopefully this same enlightenment and action will occur elsewhere. However, in some local instances the law of supply and demand is artificially constrained.
Rudder - unless you work for CJ I would suggest you have no knowledge of what has happened in the past two months with union negotiations. A large portion of the pilot group is VERY unhappy and now have to work two more days a month due to the new contract to ensure that the customers are not informed of cancelled flights.

In this climate of pilot shortage.

Sounds like supply and demand at its finest.
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Last edited by eyebrow737 on Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
eyebrow737
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by eyebrow737 »

Anticyclone wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:44 am
eyebrow737 wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:52 am
rudder wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:26 am

How many CDN air carriers are offering $70k or more to a new-hire FO?
As mentioned, cargojet has been doing it for the past 5 years (67k) It is wide body. The general international standard for a wide body FO is around $85k USD a year. That is $110k CAD.

If you want to compare to AC, sure, the pay at CJ is good -or.... better view is the pay at AC is a disgrace.
What is your international std ? coz i can tell you that my international std WDB is 300K CAD for 1st year FO too.

You know what eyebrow in french we call guys like you mauvaise langue.
My international standard is having flown in 5 continents for the past 27 years.

You know what we say about people like you in HK? Diu lay lo mo chow hai.
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ant_321
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by ant_321 »

It's great that they start at 70k but where do the pay scales top out?
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rudder
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by rudder »

eyebrow737 wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:45 am

Rudder - unless you work for CJ I would suggest you have no knowledge of what has happened in the past two months with union negotiations. A large portion of the pilot group is VERY unhappy and now have to work two more days a month due to the new contract to ensure that the customers are not informed of cancelled flights.

In this climate of pilot shortage.

Sounds like supply and demand at its finest.
The CJ pilots are unionized. CJ is not in CCAA and I have not heard any rumours of their negotiating committee being locked up in the Minister of Labour’s office in YOW.

If the WAWCON changed at CJ it is because the CJ pilots voted for it.
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flyzam
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by flyzam »

Hardly the role model of supply and demand that you espouse. Unions are the enemy of the free market as examplified by this outcome.

Threats were made, the majority folded and people are looking for new jobs
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rudder
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by rudder »

flyzam wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:08 pm Hardly the role model of supply and demand that you espouse. Unions are the enemy of the free market as examplified by this outcome.

Threats were made, the majority folded and people are looking for new jobs
Even pilots in a unionised environment have to deal with economics and external pressures. The Canadian piloting profession has been under duress for decades. But the tide is slowly turning.

I have no information on the issues facing the CJ pilots or what choices they have made. But what I do know is that if there is a pilot exodus as a result that the employer will be forced to revisit the matters.

Perhaps the CJ pilots should collectively examine alternative representation.
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munzil
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by munzil »

rudder wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:44 pm
eyebrow737 wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:45 am

Rudder - unless you work for CJ I would suggest you have no knowledge of what has happened in the past two months with union negotiations. A large portion of the pilot group is VERY unhappy and now have to work two more days a month due to the new contract to ensure that the customers are not informed of cancelled flights.

In this climate of pilot shortage.

Sounds like supply and demand at its finest.
The CJ pilots are unionized. CJ is not in CCAA and I have not heard any rumours of their negotiating committee being locked up in the Minister of Labour’s office in YOW.

If the WAWCON changed at CJ it is because the CJ pilots voted for it.
Going back to the original thread of this topic, this is why people are sick of the Canadian Aviation Industry. A new contract comes up, the union agrees to two more days work and no pay raise except for paying for those two days.

There has never been a better time to recount for the loses in the past 17 years to Wacom and the union and majority voted for nothing special apart from keeping their jobs under the threat of firings from the union representative.

The system is broken and the unions are complicit as to why WACOM is by far the worst in Canada.
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dhc#
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by dhc# »

Union MECs and company management M/O's often are not that different (the needs of the few trump the needs of the many).
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by Beefitarian »

telex wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:30 am

That's Shanghai on the right with an air quality index of 430. Anything over 301 is hazardous.

Image

Make sure you know what you're getting into.
Is that Red Deer Alberta on the left?
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by confusedalot »

Or, if you don't want the China pollution or live in Red Deer, you can always retrain as a mechanical engineer with a Bsc.,

and make between 46K and 95K, with a median of 66K as indicated below.

https://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Jo ... eer/Salary

Pilots warrant good pay of course, but out of naive wondering, how much is suitable?

Anyone?
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by alkaseltzer »

https://www.ctvnews.ca/w5/w5-investigat ... -1.3606680

I don't know how anyone could work for Virmani and still have some self respect...AC also beating people with a stick (and spinning it off with their all star PR dept)
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Re: Tired of the Canadian Aviation Industry

Post by valleyboy »

Having been there and done that I always find it a little sad when people start pointing fingers and complain about their working conditions. You have jobs and are getting paid and if you want to improve on that get proactive. No tools if you are non-union except how you work and possibly negotiate your own deal but lifestyle will not be perfect.

Unions are a good tool but the problem with unions is its members. As always it always ends up with a small group doing all the work for a bunch that all they do is complain. If it bothers you that much, grow a set and roll your sleeves up and get to work. Unions and collective agreements are not an over night success. It takes years and several negotiations and collective agreements before one to gets to a point where the majority are content with a contract. Union work is thankless. Unlike insurance companies unions are your best buddy when you need them if you are threatened directly. Any other time all you do is bitch and complain about what a poor job they are doing.

A union is only as good as its members, it's all volunteer work, no extra pay and a lot of heart aches, especially when there is a major incident.

Unions only work in a company that is large enough and has a core of lifers. Any small company with lots of movement a union will simply not survive.

Unions are not perfect but remember when you sit back on your heals and point fingers, moan about long hours or a compromise to keep people working you are part of the problem. A good MEC will always work for the benefit of the whole and not small groups or individuals. All members treated equally, no matter of seniority. In reality the seniority system really sucks and is the area most vulnerable when unions are under attack by management. It creates complete chaos. Look at the sh1t show at AC over the years. It turns pilots into mindless idiots.
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