Airbus VS Boeing

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garfield
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Airbus VS Boeing

Post by garfield » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:12 pm

hi,

If you want to fly manually, which one would you choose to fly?
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Joe Blow Schmo
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by Joe Blow Schmo » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:40 pm

That’s kind of a random question. I’ve found both quite nice to fly manually.
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Lightchop
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by Lightchop » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:11 pm

Whatever pays better.
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Zaibatsu
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by Zaibatsu » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:35 pm

You won’t be flying either very much.

I don’t see what the big deal is.

Like others said whichever one pays more or offers a better lifestyle.

Though the 320 has a quieter, more comfortable, and less archaic cockpit than the 737. Beyond that it doesn’t matter much.
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ABU
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by ABU » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:11 pm

If you're not using automation except for the first and last 500ft, you may be doing it wrong. The passengers, airline and aircraft itself deserve the best and in my case at least that means letting the automation do its thing while we(humans) manage. Oh yeah, they hand fly fine low and get worse with altitude....physics and all that.
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squash junky
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by squash junky » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:33 pm

I think the answer about the pay wins.
22 yrs in the left seat of a Boeing I think nr 1 is time off and nr 2 is pay.
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ant_321
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by ant_321 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:35 pm

ABU wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:11 pm
If you're not using automation except for the first and last 500ft, you may be doing it wrong. The passengers, airline and aircraft itself deserve the best and in my case at least that means letting the automation do its thing while we(humans) manage. Oh yeah, they hand fly fine low and get worse with altitude....physics and all that.
What if your airline requests that you hand fly from time to time? Including a full arrival when conditions and workload permit?
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ABU
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by ABU » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:36 pm

Dunno. Haven't worked for an airline that asks pilots to do that. Sim every 6 months usually covers enough failures that require hand flying I suppose. Particularly manual reversion from FL320 on down to the vicinity of the runway...so very close!
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Lightchop
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by Lightchop » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:00 pm

squash junky wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:33 pm
I think the answer about the pay wins.
22 yrs in the left seat of a Boeing I think nr 1 is time off and nr 2 is pay.
Yeah my other criteria would be lifestyle.
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by Meatservo » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:40 pm

ABU wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:11 pm
If you're not using automation except for the first and last 500ft, you may be doing it wrong. The passengers, airline and aircraft itself deserve the best and in my case at least that means letting the automation do its thing while we(humans) manage. Oh yeah, they hand fly fine low and get worse with altitude....physics and all that.
This attitude is becoming archaic. The passengers, airline and aircraft deserve to have a crew who are able to perform equally well under all levels of automation, from full to none. The presumption that your basic instrument flying skills remain intact with almost no practice is not only wrong, it's arrogant. Skilful and accurate situational awareness and aircraft control is a volatile skill. You try to justify not taking that seriously by talking about how the passengers deserve not to be subjected to your aircraft handling, when you're actually doing them a disservice by deliberately avoiding being at your best. Your attitude panders to those who profit from diminishing the importance of human beings in the cockpit. Full automation is their goal, and if pilots themselves are not willing to contribute to their own relevance, then it can't come soon enough. Cockpit automation was originally meant to augment the abilities of pilots with fully developed skills, in order to bring safety to a new level. Now, it just serves to preserve the status quo by acting as a crutch for underachievers.
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Last edited by Meatservo on Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by Lightchop » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:47 pm

I hand fly regularly. But I don't pretend like I'm better than the AP. I do it enough to stay proficient in case there is a situation where I need to hand fly. Usually it's because the AP is inop, but more often than not, the AP is flying.
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by Bede » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:02 am

Bang on Meatservo.
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Rooster69
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by Rooster69 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:29 am

ABU wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:11 pm
If you're not using automation except for the first and last 500ft, you may be doing it wrong. The passengers, airline and aircraft itself deserve the best and in my case at least that means letting the automation do its thing while we(humans) manage. Oh yeah, they hand fly fine low and get worse with altitude....physics and all that.

Really?

I can’t fathom how a professional pilot could come up with that statement. The pass3ngers, airline and aircraft deserve the best pilots, not some lazy knob turner who can’t be bothered to keep his flying skills sharp.
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ABU
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by ABU » Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:50 pm

I'd sugest you may want to do the airline (Boeing or otherwise) job or even a single sim and then comment. I've yet to see any pilot on the 73 that can "hand fly" an arrival close to the automation, and why would one? But I am keen to hear how much automation, in your view, I should leave off next time.
And this is why most people don't provide insight or feedback to posts here. So many "experts".
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:12 pm

Meatservo has it right, automation will eventually do everything in the meantime pilots will become rare in the airline business as we get more and more automation slaves watching the machine fly.
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Zaibatsu
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by Zaibatsu » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:55 pm

ABU wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:50 pm
But I am keen to hear how much automation, in your view, I should leave off next time.
And this is why most people don't provide insight or feedback to posts here. So many "experts".
Leave it all off.

That’s right. Flight director off. Altitude and speed bugs set to zero and heading bug set north. FMS cleaned of all altitude/slope/speed information. Heck, clear it of lateral stuff too. Moving map off. Let’s Richard Russell this mofo.

All you’re allowed is yoke/stick, rudder, and thrust levers... basic flight and engine instrumentation, and raw navigational data from an HSI, RMI, and DME readout running of traditional ground based navaids.

If it’s good enough for a Navajo, it’s good enough for you.

Those who fly high performance aircraft with automation are shaking their heads. They know that it’s nearly impossible to maintain an altitude in the high flight levels with an aft c of g plane. They know they can’t legally fly an arrival without a moving map or FMS. The cockpit workload increases massively. Now add a runway change or an emergency.

Those who fly a Beaver or something like it are asking what’s the big deal. Because they are clueless as to how much is involved in controlling a large and fast civil aircraft safely and efficiently. You don’t really need to calculate top of descent from 500’... or worry about speed restrictions... or planning your decent rate to arrive at the loc below the glide path.
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Meatservo
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by Meatservo » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:04 pm

You're right, that all sounds super hard. Of course, no-one is advocating illegal stuff like hand-flying in RVSM airspace, are they? Maybe just taking a visual approach away from the computers once in a while on a nice day, so you don't turn into some kind of joke who self-righteously tries to make his job sound harder than it really is, in order to ratify some inverted sense of pride in one's own lack of involvement.

If you think it's dangerous for you to physically handle the plane in benign conditions, or it's somehow more efficient and safer to fly a visual approach to land using the mode-control panel as an intermediary ambassador between yourself and actually having to interact with the machine, or if you actually think wasting fuel by flying twenty miles past the airport in order to perform an IFR approach under a clear blue sky is more safe than just joining a circuit, then I'm afraid I don't think I need to pay the part of my ticket that goes towards your salary.

I am quite aware that the truly huge airliners going to the truly overcongested airports are going to fly the published procedures, no matter what the weather is doing- and automation reduces workload to manageable levels during multiple changes in heading, speed and altitude, within a short amont of time. Only an idiot would fail to avail himself of the technology during these challenging scenarios. But somehow, that reality didn't stop the Asiana flight 214 crew from attempting-and failing- to fly a visual approach to land. Some of you probably think those guys are a laughing stock because they attempted to fly without automation. I think they're a laughing stock because they couldn't fucking fly.
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Rockie
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by Rockie » Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:37 am

Correction regarding Asiana, they didn’t crash because they couldn’t fly without automation. They crashed because they didn’t understand the automation they had. If only automation in these airplanes was as simple as “On/Off” but it isn’t. It’s complex and requires skill and comprehensive knowledge to operate safely in all conditions and circumstances.
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by atphat » Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:13 am

Meatservo flies “large jets”. Better listen to him.
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by Meatservo » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:11 am

OK. I capitulate. As soon as ATPHAT comes into a convo, I leave. ATPHAT you seem to have chosen me as your little enemy. You're right, I don't have the same kind of job you guys do. I used to fly a smaller, older type than you probably do and I didn't do scheduled operations. I no longer fly much anyway. I listen to my son's friends talking about their jobs at "Jazz", and like many older people, I am having trouble understanding why anyone would want a job like that, because my career was so exciting, and it's always difficult to remember that some people expect different things from their lives. The attitude you guys have sometimes towards automation seems more based on dogma than on your actual experience. I have been through several iterations of "modern thinking" when it comes to the pilot's place in the automation loop. I remember when I started flying there was a very popular attitude from the top down that the planes must be flown with the highest degree of automation possible, at all times. This is when I made the decision not to pursue a career with the "major" carriers, because it didn't fit with my (young) brain's idea of where I wanted to fit into the decision-making chain. Anyway, it was about ten years later that the famous "children of the magenta" speech made its way around, first in the States and then here, and I suppose this attitude began to percolate around, the most recent of which, it seems to me, would probably be Cheslea Sullenberger's speeches on the subject of pilot skills and experience. Now, probably following the latest improvement in automation technology, we are coming back around to the more automated way of percieving "safety"

I've noticed that attitudes from the pilot cadre at large seem to follow the rising and falling tide of pilot availability. Right now we are experiencing a huge upswing in hiring, and very low levels of pilot experience. I think management teams have always been happy with low levels of pilot experience, as long as the technology suppliers can keep providing ways to predictably and safely handle large aircraft on a network of predetermined routes, with a playbook of predetermined and pre-programmed procedures that take into account the vast majority of variables liable to require input from a crew of humans. During the "children of the magenta" era there was still a large pool of very experienced former military, and (the meaning of the term might be contested) "Bush" pilots available. Now, the pool is shrinking, the demand is growing, and the attitude concerning what constitutes "experience" and how relevant this "experience" is to the overall equation is changing. It's very hard for me to imagine what life is like for some of the very young people I know, who seem to be vacuumed up by regional airlines the very moment they've mastered, or sometimes before they've mastered, being able to consistently land a plane on the centreline, or many of the basic sills, and then enter a life where by and large they will be doing more or less the exact same thing every day, all the while being told they must avoid manual flight. I get phone calls from them six months later telling me they're being trained in the left seat, and it's hard for me to get my mind around that. It's difficult for me to give them the response they want, that I am proud of them or impressed. I do, out of politeness, but privately I wonder to myself what they really could have accomplished in that short amount of time.

I apologize for my often denigrating comments toward scheduled airline pilots. I don't know very many of you, and I suppose the fact that I have at times flown some of the same kinds of planes as you makes me feel qualified to comment when maybe I'm not. I don't, and never really did, fly the same kind of duty cycles you do, and when I have overnighters it's usually for one or two nights, in some interesting place or country, and then back for a long period of being able to come home every night. I know little of the pressures of having to do the same thing night after night, experiencing fatigue and not being able to go home for many nights in a row. The other thing I apologize for is that I am often bored when I sign in to "AvCanada" and often like to say things that I know will get people wound up.

When someone asks "is the Boeing or the Airbus more fun to fly manually", and someone's response is "you shouldn't ever fly them manually", it reminds me of the disappointment I felt early in my career, when I realized that "having fun" was only going to happen if one stuck to the outer fringes and avoided the spiffy uniforms and high paycheques of the front line. I will refrain from making comments in this subject from now on.
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by ZBBYLW » Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:52 pm

I fly an Airbus in Canada and my airline encourages hand flying in thr FOM. I encourage my FOs to fly with what ever level of automation they feel is right. Sadly some of them have thanked me after as they feel most times when they want to hand fly they are a burden to their parter so for me to mention it they feel like i am more accepting.

Personally i hand fly most of my approaches, sometimes from LOC intercept othertime from 20,000 feet. Some times going into very quite places the FD will also go off at 20,000. Other times I will leave the AP and A/THR on until on GS or if weather is right at mins ill leave it all on. I feel i now have a much better sense of the energy state of the aircraft. I know when the airplane is heavier or lighter than calculated, I know when there is a t/w or shear before looking down to confirm it, in essence the company is getting more out of what they pay me, and the pax are getting a better overall pilot than my first 6 months on the bus where I usually left the A/THR on, and would disconnect after final flap selection.

The aircraft is operated more efficiently now and to say the company would get more out of the AP and me flying the FCU and not the airplanw is completely false in my experience. Not everyone who flies at the airline strives for the last 10%, but if ypu do you can find efficiencies where the programes profiles are not the best and you can do a better job either in selected modes or in control.
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by Old fella » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:18 pm

Meatservo wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:40 pm
ABU wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:11 pm
If you're not using automation except for the first and last 500ft, you may be doing it wrong. The passengers, airline and aircraft itself deserve the best and in my case at least that means letting the automation do its thing while we(humans) manage. Oh yeah, they hand fly fine low and get worse with altitude....physics and all that.
This attitude is becoming archaic. The passengers, airline and aircraft deserve to have a crew who are able to perform equally well under all levels of automation, from full to none. The presumption that your basic instrument flying skills remain intact with almost no practice is not only wrong, it's arrogant. Skilful and accurate situational awareness and aircraft control is a volatile skill. You try to justify not taking that seriously by talking about how the passengers deserve not to be subjected to your aircraft handling, when you're actually doing them a disservice by deliberately avoiding being at your best. Your attitude panders to those who profit from diminishing the importance of human beings in the cockpit. Full automation is their goal, and if pilots themselves are not willing to contribute to their own relevance, then it can't come soon enough. Cockpit automation was originally meant to augment the abilities of pilots with fully developed skills, in order to bring safety to a new level. Now, it just serves to preserve the status quo by acting as a crutch for underachievers.
Where to begin. I will start by representing the general fare paying passengers because I am not an airline pilot and know nothing about it at all. We as passengers do not give a Class One Cape Breton Fiddlers F@ck if you hand fly/auto fly in 1/4 vs 3/4 configuration or any configuration nor if you do it in a 1/2 beat in the key of C. Honestly, we do not understand what goes on up there and more to the point have little, if any knowledge. We do have a few items though:
1. Reasonable fares that won’t break us while at the same time keeping your airline in the black so you up front guys and gals can have a decent living wage and support you families like we do. We have that in common though. Ditto for the back end folks as well, they do contribute to our well being and safety.
2. Get us to our destinations in a timely manner as best as you can. Yes, we do indeed understand weather, airplanes are machines, they break, pilots and FAs can’t fly 24/7. The airline hating hyper- partisans think we should feel the same way they do about airline operations and services. Honestly, we don’t.
3 Keep the airplane right side up and pointed the correct direction.
4.Try your Damnest to make sure our baggage arrives with us, that is important. There are things in our baggage we need, iPads, skivvies, seniors need the hearing aids, young couples need their birth control etc, etc. Imagine if I didn’t get my $500.00 bottle of Château d’Yquem cause the baggage didn’t arrive for that special 33 av night at Royal York in Toronto. Thanks Air Canada but you came through as ole brown bag was fourth on conveyor.

Cheers.
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Rockie
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by Rockie » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:26 pm

Old Fella, one of these days I’d love to buy you a drink.

:smt038 :smt038 :smt038
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by Old fella » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:29 pm

Rockie wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:26 pm
Old Fella, one of these days I’d love to buy you a drink.

:smt038 :smt038 :smt038
Not sure if you could afford me Rockie. I acquired Champagne tastes but alas, I have a paupers pocket. I promise though, I will keep it to a dull roar.

Cheers
:drinkers: :drinkers:
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Re: Airbus VS Boeing

Post by Rockie » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:20 pm

Shit...I should have said beer.

:lol:
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