Where is this so called shortage

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shimmydampner
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by shimmydampner »

Laguardia wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:18 pm
... how the hell do you justify freezing all FOs, no matter the type they are on, to the same salary for the first 5 years?
That's easy. Because it's luck of the draw what type you will get. Let's say you show up for day 1 and another gal shows up with the same resume as you: 1500 hours and a cracker jack ATPL. You pick from the hat, she gets one seniority number up on you and you get Embraer and she gets Dreamliner. Are you going to be happy with making $60k/year less than her based on dumb luck? How the hell do you justify that?
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C-GGGQ »

In that case why not fixed rate all the way. Come year 5 she still has one number better than you and IS on the dreamliner.
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lownslow
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by lownslow »

Laguardia wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:06 pm
I meant that I need to get my shit together and just go for it or accept my stubbornness and forget about it all together.
My prediction: you will never be happy no matter what you do. Determine for yourself why that is and make decisions from there.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by shimmydampner »

C-GGGQ wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:48 am
In that case why not fixed rate all the way. Come year 5 she still has one number better than you and IS on the dreamliner.
Because pilots can bid to move to bases/types that suits their lifestyle. This isn't that tough to understand. I don't even work there and it makes sense to me how things are done. Furthermore, I don't have the desire to work there but it is objectively, a very good job. Maybe the pay lags behind other national carriers, I don't really know. But you can't tell me that all the benefits, perks, pension and serious long term earning potential (especially if you get in in your twenties) is a raw deal for some wet behind the ears kid. If you think it is, I'm sorry...you're feeling entitled.
What a trip: I can't believe that we're at a place where a guy like myself who never felt the urge to go this route is sticking up for its merits to kids straight out of flight school.
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C-GGGQ
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C-GGGQ »

shimmydampner wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:17 pm
C-GGGQ wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:48 am
In that case why not fixed rate all the way. Come year 5 she still has one number better than you and IS on the dreamliner.
Because pilots can bid to move to bases/types that suits their lifestyle. This isn't that tough to understand. I don't even work there and it makes sense to me how things are done. Furthermore, I don't have the desire to work there but it is objectively, a very good job. Maybe the pay lags behind other national carriers, I don't really know. But you can't tell me that all the benefits, perks, pension and serious long term earning potential (especially if you get in in your twenties) is a raw deal for some wet behind the ears kid. If you think it is, I'm sorry...you're feeling entitled.
What a trip: I can't believe that we're at a place where a guy like myself who never felt the urge to go this route is sticking up for its merits to kids straight out of flight school.
That still doesn't change "why not just flat rate all the way up" then. The answer is because wide bodies etc. Command more pay, just not if you're new, which is what makes no sense if we go by your "it's not fair to the new guys because random" explanation
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Air Canada’s starting pay is a disgrace. Please don’t try to justify it. If you work there, you should be trying (in conjunction with your union) to fix it.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by shimmydampner »

C-GGGQ wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:03 pm
That still doesn't change "why not just flat rate all the way up" then. The answer is because wide bodies etc. Command more pay, just not if you're new, which is what makes no sense if we go by your "it's not fair to the new guys because random" explanation
I have a feeling you'd feel much differently if you were on the wrong side of a $60k/year coin flip.
JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:07 pm
Air Canada’s starting pay is a disgrace. Please don’t try to justify it. If you work there, you should be trying (in conjunction with your union) to fix it.
Exactly. There's only one way to change it, and it doesn't involve me or anonyously bitching about it on the internet.
As for the starting pay...meh, I'd say it's right around market value for the experience level required to get the job. Now whether or not THAT is a disgrace is totally up for debate, but not really the subject of this thread. This thread is about entitlement and whether or not some kids with certain attitudes right out of flight school are justified to feel butt hurt about the fact that outside forces have not conspired strongly enough to make their path to a successful career easy enough for their liking. I maintain that they are not justified in complaining that the stars have not sufficiently aligned in order that they might exit the proverbial womb with the silver spoon in their mouths, 4 bars on their shoulder, keys to the Dreamliner, 5 on 25 off schedule and $280k/year paycheck complete with full benefits, pension and perks. Take a look at any successful person in any discipline and you won't see a person who wastes their time wishing their path to success was made easier by outside forces. What you WILL see is someone who takes stock of where they are, where they want to be, analyzes the path to get there and gets down to business. The brass ring is there for anyone to grab, but it's not going to be handed to you. If you want a mainline job, it's not that hard to get. You could have it by age 25, no problem. You know going in what the starting wage is. And you know that it is very temporary when considering you could have a 40 year career, the last 30 of which you're likely to make $200k and up annually if you want. If you don't think that juice is worth the squeeze, have fun doing something else.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C-GGGQ »

The point is you are always on one side of the "60k coin flip" that person is always ahead of you by seniority and can always hold a position you can't. So doesn't matter if you flat rate the pay for 4 years or 40.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by shimmydampner »

But it's not just one straight line. Someone may wish to forego a higher captain's wage in favour of remaining a senior FO at a certain base for personal or lifestyle reasons, while someone else may wish to bid on a captain position with a less desirable schedule at a less desirable base in order to make more money. There's many more factors at play than the simplified way you're looking at it. But by all means, feel free to get involved with the union bargaining team and have your voice heard.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C-GGGQ »

Don't misunderstand, I'm not actually advocating for flat pay all the way up, quite the opposite. Just saying that I feel your argument of your first bid is kinda random doesn't hold water. I'm not AC, and as I'm mid 30's with no degree or diploma, I might not ever be. Just think it's weird that at my age I may be better off at a regional forever since the seniority system/ flat pay means any jump to AC is 1 step forward 3 steps back.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Lightchop »

shimmydampner wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:43 am
Laguardia wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:18 pm
... how the hell do you justify freezing all FOs, no matter the type they are on, to the same salary for the first 5 years?
That's easy. Because it's luck of the draw what type you will get. Let's say you show up for day 1 and another gal shows up with the same resume as you: 1500 hours and a cracker jack ATPL. You pick from the hat, she gets one seniority number up on you and you get Embraer and she gets Dreamliner. Are you going to be happy with making $60k/year less than her based on dumb luck? How the hell do you justify that?
Sounds like stat pay is the solution. Europe seems to have figured that out, but you'll never pry those absurdly high paying widebody skipper jobs away from the old farts that's for sure.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C.W.E. »

but you'll never pry those absurdly high paying widebody skipper jobs away from the old farts that's for sure.
That is true, funny how the wide body captains are not young low time, low experience pilots isn't it?
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by shimmydampner »

C-GGGQ wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:22 pm
Just think it's weird that at my age I may be better off at a regional forever since the seniority system/ flat pay means any jump to AC is 1 step forward 3 steps back.
I get it, it sucks. But let's say for easy math/argument's sake you're making $150k/year at age 35 at a regional and you're near the max earning potential there. So, you can stay there making 150/yr for the rest of your career and have a nice comfortable life, no worries. Totally respect that. Or, if you're so inclined, you can go to mainline and suck it up and take the hit for 4 years. From what I hear, upgrades are happening relatively quickly so let's say you make captain by at least 40. You're suddenly right back where you started and then some, in terms of wages. By 45, you're looking at $200k+. Plus, you have 25 years to go nowhere but up in terms of earnings, schedule, lifestyle, whatever your thing is. And this is all worst case Ontario. I'm not saying it's the be all, end all. But come on, anyone in their 20s or even early to mid 30s crying about big red not being worth it needs to get a little life experience and perspective.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Lightchop »

C.W.E. wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:10 pm
but you'll never pry those absurdly high paying widebody skipper jobs away from the old farts that's for sure.
That is true, funny how the wide body captains are not young low time, low experience pilots isn't it?
No one said low time, low experience. Open your eyes ., Canada is behind the times in pay, fatigue and work rules.

The younger guys are all flogging the heavy metal from Europe while the old guys enjoy the leisure life flying in Europe. Why the @#$! would I want to cross 9 time zones when I'm 58 years old? I seriously don't understand the draw. In the past it was for the "big pension" top ups, but with DB pensions all but gone I don't see as many people chasing that high paying widebody skipper job anymore just for pension purposes. I'll happily sit as a med-high up on the list narrow body Captain and live 10 years longer when I retire.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by complexintentions »

As someone living and flying in Europe, I can assure you that the European "system" has just as many downsides and issues as the North American one - just different ones. It's been pointed out earlier that ab initio pilots going straight into "heavy metal" (narrowbodies? lol) take on absolutely staggering debt with no guarantees. How is that better - or different - than sub-par wages for awhile? Ugh.

The grass is no greener anywhere else. Sorry. Take it from someone who took the "get rich slow" career path. You get what you work and sacrifice for, and yes, need to mix in a little luck of timing.

But if you disagree and think otherwise, just stop bitching and move already to the mythical Promised Land.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Lightchop »

complexintentions wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:14 pm
As someone living and flying in Europe, I can assure you that the European "system" has just as many downsides and issues as the North American one - just different ones. It's been pointed out earlier that ab initio pilots going straight into "heavy metal" (narrowbodies? lol) take on absolutely staggering debt with no guarantees. How is that better - or different - than sub-par wages for awhile? Ugh.

The grass is no greener anywhere else. Sorry. Take it from someone who took the "get rich slow" career path. You get what you work and sacrifice for, and yes, need to mix in a little luck of timing.

But if you disagree and think otherwise, just stop bitching and move already to the mythical Promised Land.
Stat pay works great at Jazz. Sure it's not big heavies, but everyone is realtivley happy... people fly what they want to vs. what they have to and no one pays bonds or goes into severe debt (well is $80k severe? I don't know.. that is what it costs these days to have a bare CPL MIFR).

I'd rather pay $100k for schooling, know I have a job and career for the next 40 years at a carrier like AF or Lufthansa than the shit system we have in Canada where everyone is so eager to step on everyones face to get ahead.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

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ekg wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:42 pm
Is the military really having a shortage these days? Apparently not enough pilots for the F-18s with the attrition. Read in the news today. I heard an anecdote that one is more likely to get in the NHL before becoming an F-18 pilot in Canada!

Pay seems to be not bad, $80K. Tempting if I was 18-22 didn't know any better.
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-nat ... pilot.html
I applied to the military, called them, emailed them. No response whatsoever
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by complexintentions »

Lightchop wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:08 pm
I'd rather pay $100k for schooling, know I have a job and career for the next 40 years at a carrier like AF or Lufthansa than the shit system we have in Canada where everyone is so eager to step on everyones face to get ahead.
Then do what it takes to apply at AF or LH already. Geezuz.

Canada is a tiny percentage of world aviation, but it sure is heavily represented by whiners. :mrgreen:
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shimmydampner
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by shimmydampner »

Ok, so you'd rather pay $100k to have it easy. Fair enough. Just don't skip the stall training at AF.
You can easily have a 40 year career at AC if you like. Is it the fact that you have to do other jobs to get a bare minimum of experience first that bothers you? What exactly, is the problem?
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

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Lightchop wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:08 pm
I'd rather pay $100k for schooling, know I have a job and career for the next 40 years at a carrier like AF or Lufthansa than the shit system we have in Canada where everyone is so eager to step on everyones face to get ahead.
You don't pay 100k and get a job. You pay 100k to enter the lottery of potentially getting a job.

There are some programs that lead to a "guaranteed" job, but most people go to the school, pay their money and then have a fancy license and don't fly ever again. That's the reality. It is getting better now, but I would still say it is way worse over there than in Canada.

If you want to compare your odds to something Canadian: imagine you have an ATPL, 1500 hours and you apply at Air Canada, because that is the only operator around. Those are the odds you are dealing with in Europe.

Even if you "fail" in Canada, and you don't make it to Air Canada (if that is your goal), there are still a gazillion operators around where you could at least fly, some even for decent money. In Europe, if you don't make it to the airlines, there is (almost) nothing else around and you are royally screwed. The Canadian system is not the greatest, but boy, it is pretty good though compared to the alternatives.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ehv8oar »

You're not even paying $100k, to go to the right integrated school, you're paying $200k. Then even if you get a jet job you have to put your hand in your pocket, or more likely your parents pocket, for another $50k for the type rating.

The european system massively favours the rich.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ant_321 »

ehv8oar wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:27 am
You're not even paying $100k, to go to the right integrated school, you're paying $200k. Then even if you get a jet job you have to put your hand in your pocket, or more likely your parents pocket, for another $50k for the type rating.

The european system massively favours the rich.
I agree. I’ve worked side by side with Europeans for the last few years and all of the ones I’ve come to know all come from well to do families. Most average joes from middle class families, like myself,simply cannot afford to do flight training in Europe. I personally know half a dozen in that boat who came to Canada and are now flying at various Canadian carriers. If you’re a rich kid who doesn’t mind gambling $250k of your parents money than I guess the European model may work better for you.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

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jakeandelwood wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:47 pm
ekg wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:42 pm
Is the military really having a shortage these days? Apparently not enough pilots for the F-18s with the attrition. Read in the news today. I heard an anecdote that one is more likely to get in the NHL before becoming an F-18 pilot in Canada!

Pay seems to be not bad, $80K. Tempting if I was 18-22 didn't know any better.
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-nat ... pilot.html
I applied to the military, called them, emailed them. No response whatsoever
It’s not a shortage of applicants. That said, recruiting could have at least given you a response either saying not right now, or never gonna happen. Did you ever follow up?
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by jakeandelwood »

TT1900 wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:03 pm
jakeandelwood wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:47 pm
ekg wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:42 pm
Is the military really having a shortage these days? Apparently not enough pilots for the F-18s with the attrition. Read in the news today. I heard an anecdote that one is more likely to get in the NHL before becoming an F-18 pilot in Canada!

Pay seems to be not bad, $80K. Tempting if I was 18-22 didn't know any better.
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-nat ... pilot.html
I applied to the military, called them, emailed them. No response whatsoever
It’s not a shortage of applicants. That said, recruiting could have at least given you a response either saying not right now, or never gonna happen. Did you ever follow up?
No, I haven't followed the up yet, I should. I think I may be to old.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C-GGGQ »

jakeandelwood wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:39 pm
TT1900 wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:03 pm
jakeandelwood wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:47 pm


I applied to the military, called them, emailed them. No response whatsoever
It’s not a shortage of applicants. That said, recruiting could have at least given you a response either saying not right now, or never gonna happen. Did you ever follow up?
No, I haven't followed the up yet, I should. I think I may be to old.
Definitely follow up. Likely not too old (unless mid 40's or something) do you already have a degree? Or hoping for ROTP etc? Time of year matters and whether you are DEO or not
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