Where is this so called shortage

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Outlaw58
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Outlaw58 »

Too old can NOT be the reason they won't recruit you. It would be discrimination. They have to score your application against the available positions and other applicants, so not saying that they won't reject yours but the official reason will not be age.

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ehv8oar
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ehv8oar »

Is there not an age limit on Pilots in the Canadian Air Force? There is for the RAF and RN.
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Outlaw58
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Outlaw58 »

ehv8oar wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:43 am
Is there not an age limit on Pilots in the Canadian Air Force? There is for the RAF and RN.
Well yeah there is...55 is the retirement age and that can be extended to 60 but that being said, rejecting an applicant solely based on age has been deemed discriminatory.

58

PS.: If you read between the lines, that means that yeah you can be rejected, but age won't be the stated reason.
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C-GGGQ
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C-GGGQ »

Yes but with retirement age in mind and the fact that pilot training is taking an avg of 6 years there will definitely be a cutoff of "you'll never finish in time"
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ehv8oar
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by ehv8oar »

Ah got ya. The RAF and RN are a bit more ageist about it then I guess, last time I checked (about 10 years ago) the top age limit to start your training to be a Pilot in the RAF was 21. I'm in my 30's now so maybe the RCAF would let me do some part time F18 flying ;)
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Outlaw58
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Outlaw58 »

ehv8oar wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:30 am
Ah got ya. The RAF and RN are a bit more ageist about it then I guess, last time I checked (about 10 years ago) the top age limit to start your training to be a Pilot in the RAF was 21. I'm in my 30's now so maybe the RCAF would let me do some part time F18 flying ;)
Being in your 30's is far from being a show stopper to become a hornet driver. In fact, there is a very high demand for fighter drivers. It is way more likely that passing the recruitment process, primary pilot training and if you do make it passed those hurdles, getting a good enough flying score to be considered for the jet will get in the way WELL before age does.

If you do make it'll keep in mind that flying the hornet is tough on the body which is why very few drivers continue to fly it inter 40s, but some do. It is also very tough on family life so if you if a S.O. and/or kids, so if you want to enjoy a job like that, the thrill of flying has to trump your desire for a family life (much more demanding for the family than being an airline pilot).

So? Do your feel lucky? ;)

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jakeandelwood
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by jakeandelwood »

Outlaw58 wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:21 am
Too old can NOT be the reason they won't recruit you. It would be discrimination. They have to score your application against the available positions and other applicants, so not saying that they won't reject yours but the official reason will not be age.

58
Thanks, I'm going to look into it more, I'm 45 by the way.
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DanWEC
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by DanWEC »

Not to be discouraging or off-topic, but I read something, somewhere, about the selection process after recruitment, and how the chances of making it through fast jet selection after the age of 35 has been nonexistent due to the physical requirements in the centrifuge.
For a fleeting while I wanted to be the one to break that, but then the rest of life happened, including airlines.

Can anyone else chime in on that aspect of selection? I may be completely incorrect.
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TT1900
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by TT1900 »

The oldest successful student I have seen through Moose Jaw was in his late 40's. The oldest I have seen go fighters was late 30's. If it's something you are truly interested in I encourage you to harass recruiting until they provide an answer.

As others have said, high-G environments are not the easiest on the body though effect varies greatly by individual and age doesnt affect some. Many develop back and neck problems, though that is equally true for the helo pilots.

People say Fighters are hard on family. So are the C-17, AAR Airbus, J-Herc, Maritime Helo, Tac Hel, etc. Like anything else in life, each has its own set of positives and negatives.
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Last edited by TT1900 on Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TT1900
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by TT1900 »

DanWEC wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:19 pm
Can anyone else chime in on that aspect of selection? I may be completely incorrect.
The centrifuge is awful, no doubt, but it's not the limiting factor for 99%. F-18 & Hawk pilots have to do 5G without the G-suit and 7.5G with G-Suit. Snowbirds have to do 6G without the suit, which in my opinion is more difficult. Lots of Snowbirds who are 35+.
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Outlaw58
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Outlaw58 »

TT1900 wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:41 pm
People say Fighters are hard on family. So are the C-17, AAR Airbus, J-Herc, Maritime Helo, Tac Hel, etc. Like anything else in life, each has its own set of positives and negatives.
True. I should have specified most military flying is demanding on family. Instructing and SAR would be the most family friendly kind of military flying. And after that there is the Air Reserve :)

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mixturerich
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by mixturerich »

I don’t know what kind of dreamworld some of you are living in, but Air Canada doesn’t need to “justify” it’s starting salary. Business is business. It’s economics. They, and any other airline for that matter, won’t pay pilots any more unless they need to. And right now, they don’t!

It’s not hard to understand. You all know what you signed up for when you paid tens of thousands of dollars to become a pilot...or did you?
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by jakeandelwood »

mixturerich wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:04 pm
I don’t know what kind of dreamworld some of you are living in, but Air Canada doesn’t need to “justify” it’s starting salary. Business is business. It’s economics. They, and any other airline for that matter, won’t pay pilots any more unless they need to. And right now, they don’t!

It’s not hard to understand. You all know what you signed up for when you paid tens of thousands of dollars to become a pilot...or did you?
Yes! You just answered the question that started this whole discussion, that there is no shortage. If there was then air Canada's starting wage would reflect that and be a hell of alot more. Any job, trade or profession will pay more if they can't find people, that's economics.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by shimmydampner »

Not really. Operators can, and have, simply lowered the bar in terms of experience required.
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TailwheelPilot
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by TailwheelPilot »

As has been pointed out numerous times, presently there is not a shortage of pilots but a shortage of experienced pilots. If nothing major changes (and the economy continues to do well) eventually demand for 700 hour pilots will outpace the supply and the regionals will start taking 500 hour pilots, then 200 hour pilots. If demand still outpaces supply, pay may then increase.

Many 703/704 operators are already having trouble finding pilots. Can you imagine how much harder it will be if the regionals start hiring at 200 hours so there is no need to 'pay your dues' or gain any experience prior to being hired?
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C.W.E.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C.W.E. »

Many 703/704 operators are already having trouble finding pilots. Can you imagine how much harder it will be if the regionals start hiring at 200 hours so there is no need to 'pay your dues' or gain any experience prior to being hired?
I wonder what that says about the difficulty of flying an airplane?

Of all the kinds of work I ever did flying was by far the easiest way to make money.
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telex
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by telex »

C.W.E. wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:07 pm
Many 703/704 operators are already having trouble finding pilots. Can you imagine how much harder it will be if the regionals start hiring at 200 hours so there is no need to 'pay your dues' or gain any experience prior to being hired?
I wonder what that says about the difficulty of flying an airplane?

Of all the kinds of work I ever did flying was by far the easiest way to make money.
What's your tolerance for being a passenger with a low time Captain and a lower time FO in this, the easiest profession, in existence?
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C.W.E.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C.W.E. »

What's your tolerance for being a passenger with a low time Captain and a lower time FO in this, the easiest profession, in existence?
There is a way to find out how much experience a crew has before getting in the airplane?

Where do I find this information?
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digits_
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by digits_ »

How about we answer each question with a question?
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Lightchop
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Lightchop »

C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:46 am
What's your tolerance for being a passenger with a low time Captain and a lower time FO in this, the easiest profession, in existence?
There is a way to find out how much experience a crew has before getting in the airplane?

Where do I find this information?
500.
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Outlaw58
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Outlaw58 »

Lightchop wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:50 am
C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:46 am
What's your tolerance for being a passenger with a low time Captain and a lower time FO in this, the easiest profession, in existence?
There is a way to find out how much experience a crew has before getting in the airplane?

Where do I find this information?
500.
Didn't you mean: 500?
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C.W.E.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C.W.E. »

I wonder what that says about the difficulty of flying an airplane?

Of all the kinds of work I ever did flying was by far the easiest way to make money.
A good example is comparing the work involved in driving a big tractor trailer for eight hours on busy highways to flying a modern airplane on a eight hour flight.

Which requires the most effort and work?
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Meatservo
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Meatservo »

Hey ., I went over to the "truck drivers" forum. No-one there ever heard of you.
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Outlaw58
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Outlaw58 »

C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:59 am
I wonder what that says about the difficulty of flying an airplane?

Of all the kinds of work I ever did flying was by far the easiest way to make money.
A good example is comparing the work involved in driving a big tractor trailer for eight hours on busy highways to flying a modern airplane on a eight hour flight.

Which requires the most effort and work?
In that sense, it does not require a lot of physical effort. But because of those time I had to hoist passengers onto a ship in heavy seas, because of that flight in a storm over the North Sea where I didn't know how the hell I would land the aircraft, because of those xwind landings from breaking out at minimums, because of that missed approach at min fuel, because of that transit in formation in cloud a 36k because we didn't break on top, because the AC packing it in over Lake Superior scared the crap outta me (funny story actually), because of helo ops in mountains, because I painted myself in a corner VFR in 1/8 SM weather with min fuel, because focusing on a landing gear indicator light or forgetting the flaps for take-off or taking off/landing on the wrong runway (only to name a few examples) has killed crews and passengers in the past, etc... etc.., you'll never hear me say it's an easy job. Just because it's not physical doesn't mean it's easy.

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PS: This quote pretty much captures the essence of the point I am trying to make...

Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.

— Captain A. G. Lamplugh, British Aviation Insurance Group, London. c. early 1930's. This famous phrase has been reproduced on posters and plaques many times, almost always with the attribution of 'anonymous.' I was told at a book signing that André Priester (one of the first Pan Am employee's) may have said it, and decided to check this with the late R. E. G. Davies, then curator of air transport history at the Smithsonian and author of a book on Pan Am. Ron called me back and told me the phrase pre-dates Priester. His research showed the originator of the phrase was Captain Lamplugh, who was quite well known in British aviation circles after WWI
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C.W.E.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C.W.E. »

I
n that sense, it does not require a lot of physical effort. But because of those time I had to hoist passengers onto a ship in heavy seas, because of that flight in a storm over the North Sea where I didn't know how the hell I would land the aircraft, because of those xwind landings from breaking out at minimums, because of that missed approach at min fuel, because of that transit in formation in cloud a 36k because we didn't break on top, because the AC packing it in over Lake Superior scared the crap outta me (funny story actually), because of helo ops in mountains, because I painted myself in a corner VFR in 1/8 SM weather with min fuel, because focusing on a landing gear indicator light or forgetting the flaps for take-off or taking off/landing on the wrong runway (only to name a few examples) has killed crews and passengers in the past, etc... etc.., you'll never hear me say it's an easy job. Just because it's not physical doesn't mean it's easy.
And who exactly made the decisions that put you in those positions?
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