COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by photofly » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:51 am

Heliian wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:34 pm
I would say the losses have more to do with people being busy and too self involved to bother. People here complaining how a quick piece of paper from the cops is too overbearing.
The amazon one-click patent recognizes that the more steps there are between someone and their goal, the more likely they are to abandon it.

The opportunity to volunteer for organizations doesn't benefit from being made harder; it's not a self-flagellation competition where you get to feel good about yourself only because you made it through the two hundred preliminaries before being allowed to volunteer your time, and if you don't, then you must be self-absorbed person.

This activity is competing with lots of other "volunteer" roles that busy people can do: something for their church, or local community; spending time with the family, or whatever.

If you want people to to a good job for you, volunteer (or even paid), you should make it as easy as possible for them to do that job, and make it as easy as possible to choose doing that job for you over doing about a hundred other things that most of us could easily choose instead.

Obstacles between your volunteers and what you want them to do for you are always a bad thing.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Schooner69A » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:23 am

My experience:

A few minutes on the internet to submit the required form.

Subsequently advised that I'd have to also go the fingerprint route.

Presented myself at the local RCMP Detachment and had my prints electronically sent "away".

Paid the required fee to the city. ($25.00)

My approval subsequently received by my COPA Flight.


Cost: a little money and a little time.


If you don't want to participate in C4K anymore, just say so; don't hide behind patently fake excuses...
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by rookiepilot » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:13 am

Schooner69A wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:23 am

Cost: a little money and a little time.

If you don't want to participate in C4K anymore, just say so; don't hide behind patently fake excuses...
Sigh. I volunteered....as a teacher to go to Russia last year. Short trip.

Short story: Getting a Russian visa is a whole lot harder than a police check. It's a major pain.

Worthwhile things sometimes take effort.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:33 am

Schooner69A wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:23 am
If you don't want to participate in C4K anymore, just say so; don't hide behind patently fake excuses...
If you want to argue pro police check, sure, go ahead, nothing wrong with a good discussion. But if you blatently start lying about facts, you're just doing everyone a disservice.

Multiple people have reported in this topic that it can take weeks to get the check done. A COPA director himself says it is a pain in the butt. But that's all fake? Jeesh...
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Schooner69A » Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:46 pm

Who said it was fake? Silly.

Of course there was a time element between the events, but it had no bearing on me. The actual time spent doing the two items was negligible.

Again, if people just don't want to participate, just say so. Stop using silly excuses in an effort to justify your decision...
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:26 am

ctmorawetz wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:27 am
The process for getting a VSC in Toronto is a huge pain in the @$$, but the pilots and other volunteers remembered who C4K is really about...the kids!
Right! So why aren't we thinking of the kids and requiring the VSC for all volunteers on the CFK crew? The ones who escort the kids to the classrooms away from their parents, frequently one at a time?

Never mind, you've already answered that. "You had to do something and you started with the pilots." Security theatre, nothing more.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Schooner69A » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:59 pm

All the children we've flown have been brought to the venue accompanied by their parents, guardians, whomever.

During the sign-up, ground-briefings, etc. the children are rarely out of sight of the adults with whom they came.

It is only during their time airborne that they are in a situation that could remotely be called "at risk".

So... In the best tradition of SMS, that risk, slight though it may be, is identified and steps taken to mitigate it. And if that means some inconvenience for we pilots, it's a small price to pay for being able to continue doing what we do.

And be careful of that for which you wish: you keep coming up with arguments that anyone of the ground volunteers could easily be a predator and you may get an outcome that you weren't expecting...

And that might really kill the COPA For Kids initiative.

Your choice.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:06 pm

Why would the result for background checks for ground volunteers be different than the one for pilots?
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by rigpiggy » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:00 pm

S69 it looks like your in BC, specifically the Okanagan. Not every area has that same painless procedure. If this kills C4K, well then I would hold that the head office was responsible. I do my part all my kids friends have an invite along when I go out, many have taken me up on it, and some of the parents too. I stopped volunteering because of the onerous process run by the drones who can only see the process, not the desired outcome.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by photofly » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:11 pm

Schooner69A wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:59 pm
And be careful of that for which you wish: you keep coming up with arguments that anyone of the ground volunteers could easily be a predator and you may get an outcome that you weren't expecting...

And that might really kill the COPA For Kids initiative.

Your choice.
Don't be silly. Why on earth would it disadvantage the C4K program? If ground volunteers had to run the gauntlet of a background check, and that put them off volunteering - well, that would just be silly, fake excuses, people being selfish. Remember it's all for the kids and a small price to pay for the privilege of helping out. Right?

Right?

I mean, isn't it?
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Schooner69A » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:37 pm

Photofly:

Given the pissing and moaning that came from the pilot group, can you imagine what would have happened if the directive had been aimed at both groups?

Many people get on their high horse, pull a Don Quixote, and ride off tilting at windmills.

Without realizing that they're riding pygmy shetlands…

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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by JasonE » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:23 pm

I have a current VSC and did not fly and C4K events this year just on the principal of this entire thing. If pilots have to do it, then so should everyone involved. Another issue I have with C4K - read the waiver very closely. Everyone is absolved of liability expect the people doing the flying. If shit hits the fan, it's on you and only you.

VSC for me involves 2 trips, 45 minutes roundtrip each time. You can't even send your spouse to pickup the paperwork. In person only with ID.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:21 pm

Schooner69A wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:37 pm
Photofly:

Given the pissing and moaning that came from the pilot group, can you imagine what would have happened if the directive had been aimed at both groups?

Many people get on their high horse, pull a Don Quixote, and ride off tilting at windmills.

Without realizing that they're riding pygmy shetlands…

______________________________________________________________________________________
This probably sums it up...


Colonel: "Are you quite finished"?

Me: "Yes"

Colonel: "Feel better"?

Me: "Much"

Colonel: "Can we get on with it"?

Me: "Yes"
Nice attempt at dodging the question. I shall ask again: why would requiring a check for ground people kill the event but requiring a check for pilots apparently not?

You are defending the requirement for pilots yet also defending the decision to not require it for ground crew. Isn't that a bit hypocritical or at the very least very odd?

What is the difference?
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Schooner69A » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:41 am

Digits: I'll try and put it more simply. I may have not been too clear in my explanation. Mea culpa.

The whimper from some in the pilot group is "Why were we singled out? Why not everybody else?"

So... To reiterate: given the pissing and moaning from the pilot group (who constitute a small portion of total manpower required to successfully run a C4K), if the edict had been applied across the board and ALL personnel had been required to undergo the check, the pissing and moaning might have fed upon itself leading to sufficient people electing to not participate further. And THAT may have been enough to kill the venture in many places.

Even the most obtuse can see that I'm not defending the fact that only pilots have to take it; I'm positing that we're effing lucky that ONLY pilots have to take it. I don't believe that pilots need a VSC anymore that the rest of the support crew. However, that was the decision made. I could either accept the decision and "Get on with it", or I could leave. But the one thing I wouldn't do is fester, fret, fulminate, and snipe from the sidelines in an effort to put the COPA directors et al in a bad light.

Most of us will just shake our heads, suck it up, and get on with the job. There will be a few who will "stand on principle" and use it as an excuse not to participate any more. A pity. Their prerogative. We need them.

I'm outta here: pancake breakfast in Oliver...
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:49 am

Schooner69A wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:59 pm
During the sign-up, ground-briefings, etc. the children are rarely out of sight of the adults with whom they came.
Your CFK events have been different from the ones i've been involved in. At ours, parents frequently try to drop their kids off and come back for them later... We have to tell them no, you can't leave your kids, this isn't a daycare. Even so, it's common for one parent to be left behind while the other carries on with whatever errands they wanted to run. Also, the parents are generally corralled into the outdoor area by the flying club to watch airplanes, while the kids are given a tour of the flying club, and ushered into a classroom for their ground instruction portion. Finally, while waiting for their flight, it's a bit of a melee of kids and parents standing or sitting around being patient. Kids and parents alike wander off, to the bathroom or wherever. There's *lots* of opportunity, for someone so inclined, to intervene.
It is only during their time airborne that they are in a situation that could remotely be called "at risk".
And yet, that's the most tightly controlled and coordinated period in the entire event. A marshall brings the kids out to the plane in full view of the parents, the kids are strapped in, and the aircraft departs. For 10 minutes the pilot has their hands full between ATC and rowdy kids. Then they land, taxi in, and they are de-planed... again, in full view of the parents. There's very little opportunity for anything.
So... In the best tradition of SMS, that risk, slight though it may be, is identified and steps taken to mitigate it. And if that means some inconvenience for we pilots, it's a small price to pay for being able to continue doing what we do.
And in the best tradition of SMS, the greater risk is ignored in favour of the optics of "doing something" when really, *nothing* is needed.

If any questions arose about the CFK events, both of our arguments could be combined to support not requiring checks at all. Pilots don't have the bandwidth during the flight to interfere with a child, and while on the ground, the children are "rarely out of sight" of their adults. This wasn't an insurance-mandated requirement. COPA chose to do this on their own, without thinking it through.
And be careful of that for which you wish: you keep coming up with arguments that anyone of the ground volunteers could easily be a predator and you may get an outcome that you weren't expecting...
With about a 5:1 ratio of ground volunteers to pilots at our events, it's statistically a lot more likely that a ground volunteer could be a predator than a pilot in the first place... There are a lot more of them. And they don't have to get the VSC! Not sure what you were trying to say with this, but it just reinforces my assertion that *everyone* needs the VSC, if we believe it's necessary at all.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:57 am

Schooner69A wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:41 am
So... To reiterate: given the pissing and moaning from the pilot group (who constitute a small portion of total manpower required to successfully run a C4K), if the edict had been applied across the board and ALL personnel had been required to undergo the check, the pissing and moaning might have fed upon itself leading to sufficient people electing to not participate further. And THAT may have been enough to kill the venture in many places.
I have a strong suspicion that if all participants were required to get the VSC, that there would have been much less moaning about it. It's not uncommon for people working with kids to require it. Scouts, for example. There would still be a little bit of moaning, but it would be ended with "everyone has to do it who works with kids" and that would probably be the end of it. The problem is that what was required was *not* normal. Targeting a subset of the team involved, when all of the volunteers recognize that (a) they are not the ones with the greatest opportunity, and (b) they are already volunteering significant resources to participate in this in the first place. It's targeted, and unnecessarily punitive, to pilots who wish to participate. And it has the added stink of painting anyone who objects to this failed principle as someone who could be a potential child molester.
I don't believe that pilots need a VSC anymore that the rest of the support crew. However, that was the decision made.
And we should be questioning bad decisions. It's not about painting COPA directors in a bad light, it's about doing the right thing, not blindly following orders.
I'm outta here: pancake breakfast in Oliver...
That was my plan too, then the thunderstorm forecast came in. Instead I think our flight of two will descend on Nanaimo for their monthly breakfast and cheap gas sale.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by corethatthermal » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:21 am

If the government came up with a new "initiative" , oh lets call it the "save the earth from imminent impending disaster tax" and then proceeded to tax all Canadians an extra 40% of their income ( for a total of approx 90% overall taxes) How many here would fall in line for the good of humanity and to save the earth ? How many would chastise others and say "suck it up buttercup" stop being a spoiler "?
This security check for pilots is the same it is 100% theatre and a knee jerk reaction ! I for one will stand up against foolish authoritarian actions to preserve freedom and common sense!
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:22 am

Schooner69A wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:41 am
So... To reiterate: given the pissing and moaning from the pilot group (who constitute a small portion of total manpower required to successfully run a C4K), if the edict had been applied across the board and ALL personnel had been required to undergo the check, the pissing and moaning might have fed upon itself leading to sufficient people electing to not participate further. And THAT may have been enough to kill the venture in many places.
Still sounds like you are more worried about ground staff quitting than pilots quitting. I'd think without pilots the event can not happen. Without sufficient ground staff, the organisation would be a mess, but the event could still technically happen.
Schooner69A wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:41 am
Even the most obtuse can see that I'm not defending the fact that only pilots have to take it; I'm positing that we're effing lucky that ONLY pilots have to take it. I don't believe that pilots need a VSC anymore that the rest of the support crew. However, that was the decision made. I could either accept the decision and "Get on with it", or I could leave. But the one thing I wouldn't do is fester, fret, fulminate, and snipe from the sidelines in an effort to put the COPA directors et al in a bad light.

Most of us will just shake our heads, suck it up, and get on with the job. There will be a few who will "stand on principle" and use it as an excuse not to participate any more. A pity. Their prerogative. We need them.
And if it were a job I could completely understand your posts. It's part of the job, suck it up, only a little bit of time, etc etc. But it's not. COPA is asking for a free service from the pilots. As the old adage goes: beggars can't be choosers. You want the free airplane and free pilots to organize the event, the last you could do is make everything as easy as possible for the pilots to attend.

Without pilots there would be no COPA for Kids. Without COPA for Kids, pilots would still happily fly around. They don't need C4K. C4K needs the pilots.

You want pilots with a VCR? Sure, well, pay for it. At some point you have to put your foot down and say "enough is enough" with all these extra requirements and red type. You can't necessarily do that at your day job, but at volunteering activities? People have a way lower treshold for BS.
Flying is risky. Accept it.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:24 am

corethatthermal wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:21 am
This security check for pilots is the same it is 100% theatre and a knee jerk reaction ! I for one will stand up against foolish authoritarian actions to preserve freedom and common sense!
It's even worse, it's a knee jerk action. They are not even reacting towards anything. Unless it is kept hidden in the depths of COPA archives, no child has ever been molested by a C4K event by a C4K pilot.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by rookiepilot » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:34 am

Ok, I've read enough of the whinefest here, and I'm going to defend COPA.

You guys are really clueless about how these predators operate. God Bless you for naivety.

The reason -- yes I'm certainly presuming -- that COPA is singling out pilots, is not what might happen at an event.

It's the chance one of the kids might actually find flying cool, and the pilot cool, and they strike up a private relationship, you know with those things we call phones -- without any knowledge of the parents -- (you know the ones that just want to drop off their kids, LOL).

Then something online called grooming happens. The pilot has something cool to offer -- another flight. Ground staff, nothing of the kind. It's a gold mine for any pilot who is a predator. And these predators are patient.

Pilots are what's called being in a position of influence in the interactions with children. Ground staff aren't. I'm supposing this is their thinking on it

You think there's a Chance copa has thought all this through?

I'm also guessing few of the critics have been in any leadership capacity of an organization that could be wrecked by accusations of failing to keep children safe. If you were, you'd see it differently.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:08 am

That would be more realistic than abuse happening during flight. However, if that is the reason why they impose the requirement, they could have communicated it that way. We've had a few high level COPA people reply in this topic, and this explanation has never been given, which makes me put my money on the "knee jerk (re)action" side of things.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by jakeandelwood » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:10 am

rookiepilot wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:34 am
Ok, I've read enough of the whinefest here, and I'm going to defend COPA.

You guys are really clueless about how these predators operate. God Bless you for naivety.

The reason -- yes I'm certainly presuming -- that COPA is singling out pilots, is not what might happen at an event.

It's the chance one of the kids might actually find flying cool, and the pilot cool, and they strike up a private relationship, you know with those things we call phones -- without any knowledge of the parents -- (you know the ones that just want to drop off their kids, LOL).

Then something online called grooming happens. The pilot has something cool to offer -- another flight. Ground staff, nothing of the kind. It's a gold mine for any pilot who is a predator. And these predators are patient.

Pilots are what's called being in a position of influence in the interactions with children. Ground staff aren't. I'm supposing this is their thinking on it

You think there's a Chance copa has thought all this through?

I'm also guessing few of the critics have been in any leadership capacity of an organization that could be wrecked by accusations of failing to keep children safe. If you were, you'd see it differently.
And a police check is going to stop that? Maybe a repeat offender who has done something like that in the past and been CAUGHT. There is always a 1st time for a sexual predator, then a 2nd time and so on until they are caught.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by 5x5 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:28 am

rookiepilot wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:34 am
Ok, I've read enough of the whinefest here, and I'm going to defend COPA.

You guys are really clueless about how these predators operate. God Bless you for naivety.

The reason -- yes I'm certainly presuming -- that COPA is singling out pilots, is not what might happen at an event.

It's the chance one of the kids might actually find flying cool, and the pilot cool, and they strike up a private relationship, you know with those things we call phones -- without any knowledge of the parents -- (you know the ones that just want to drop off their kids, LOL).

Then something online called grooming happens. The pilot has something cool to offer -- another flight. Ground staff, nothing of the kind. It's a gold mine for any pilot who is a predator. And these predators are patient.

Pilots are what's called being in a position of influence in the interactions with children. Ground staff aren't. I'm supposing this is their thinking on it

You think there's a Chance copa has thought all this through?

I'm also guessing few of the critics have been in any leadership capacity of an organization that could be wrecked by accusations of failing to keep children safe. If you were, you'd see it differently.
:shock: Seriously???? Do you lie awake at night dreaming this kind of thing up? In your mythological scenario, the ground staff have much more time to have a discussion with the kids. And they are kids after all and don't likely make a connection between the difference of a pilot saying "Hey kid I could give you another ride." and a ground staff saying "Hey kid, I know these pilots and can get you another ride." As many people have already posted the ground personnel have much more casual time to talk with the kids than the pilot does.

So in answer to your question, I absolutely think that COPA didn't think this through or at least not nearly well enough.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:30 am

You can't offer to fly kids at your local airport without having to prove you are not a child molester?

Wow.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by jakeandelwood » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:43 pm

Obviously this wouldn't work with 2 place aircraft but why doesn't one of the parents just go with the kid(s) in the plane. I myself would rather have a parent in the plane, what if the kid starts screaming, is completely terrified and goes bonkers? I'd like to have someone to help me with that in the plane. If the flights are only 10 minutes and the airport is busy which it sounds like it would be on one of these days then the pilot already has their hands full.
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