COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

[AirFrame]

I stand by what I said. If your are anti police checks I don’t want you anywhere near my kids. Which you won’t be.

So you'll let your kids near the pilots, who will all have police checks now. But what about ground crew, who are currently not required to have checks? How will your kids get through the gauntlet of ground crew who haven't been vetted?

I submit that the people living in the houses on either side of you are a statistically greater risk to your kids than a pilot who only spends 20 minutes with them, usually in the presence of other kids (for a four-place airplane) and sometimes in a position where they can't even *see* or *reach* the kid (when giving rides in a tandem-seat airplane).

[AirFrame]

In the past I have volunteered to work in a number of areas dealing with juvenile's, all required a police check in attempt to protect the children. I never felt that was a problem ……. I wonder why some would?

Simple answer: for the same reason we feel that taking our belts and shoes off at airport security when flying commercially is unnecessary. It's security theatre, designed to placate someone who hasn't thought the entire situation through.

Humans in general are extremely bad at evaluating risk, and equally bad at critical thinking. I agree that someone working for a volunteer organization that spends near 100% of its time working with kids should get that background check. It's a "no-brainer". But to equate that situation to COPA for Kids is asinine. CFK isn't an organization where you're meeting with the same kids weekly, going camping on weekends, etc. etc. The kids show up, meet pilots they've never seen before, in the presence of their parents, and are only out of the parents' sight for 20 minutes during a flight where both the pilot and child are belted into an airplane. And during that 20 minutes the pilot will spend 10 talking to ATC, further reducing time to diddle.

When CFK starts offering weekend flight camps where the parents aren't around, and the kids spend extended periods with the pilots, unsupervised, then my opinion may change.

I think you need to do some research on how actually to protect your children.

Oh, but that would require that parents take on some responsibility for how their children are raised. Accepting personal responsibility is not a hallmark of the current generation... Much easier to point the finger and say "but [someone else] should have done something!"

[nbinont]

All I had to do was e-sign a consent form.

Now that is a bit more reasonable. No cost to the pilot and a couple clicks (minimal hassle). Just make sure the consent scope is limited to something reasonable, such as a criminal records check.

Someone is paying for the criminal record check. Do local COPA groups now have to seek donations to cover the criminal record check?

Indeed. The group insisting on this arguably unnecessary criminal record check (COPA) gets to foot the bill. That's only fair.
If you treat your volunteers badly, you won't have volunteers for long. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
Sigh...it's sad that "this is why we can't have nice things"

[aeroncasuperchief]

"It is also important to note that there is no legal requirement for an organization dealing with kids to have the check done. They are free to make their own decisions on whether or not they think it would be advantageous."


Saying it is by principle, or red tape or guilty until proven innocent are just ways of beating around the bush without coming out and admitting to the elephant in the room ! ( Like they used to do in Stalinist Russia )


Can anyone here tell me what I already know ? What is the Elephant in the room?


The beginning of the fix is to say NOOOOOO and stand !

[aeroncasuperchief]

Dan, Being around for 54 years, I would find it difficult to find a better written , intelligent and rational reply such as yours !

[MrWings]

Indeed. The group insisting on this arguably unnecessary criminal record check (COPA) gets to foot the bill. That's only fair.

From my research, it appears that several police services and even some provinces offer free vulnerable sector checks to volunteer organizations.

There is still a fee if you have to go through the RCMP.

[rookiepilot]

News flash to the entitled sounding:

You don't have a right to volunteer anywhere, on your terms.

Don't like it? Run for office. As I understand it, COPA directors are unpaid volunteers too.

But that would be too much like work.

The comments here elevate your 20 minute commitment to flying a few kids around as something of importance.

Give it a rest.

[digits_]

News flash to the entitled sounding:

A bit tacky to quote myself, but I'm trying to make it into a thing: Digits's Law!

Don't like it? Run for office. As I understand it, COPA directors are unpaid volunteers too.

It is a COPA for Kids organizer who asked for feedback.
Do you run for prime minister everytime you disagree with a Canadian law/policy?

But that would be too much like work.

That's the whole point. It isn't work. So the treshold of how much b*llsh*t people will put up with is much lower.

[groncher]

Maybe I'm wrong, but some of you come off as more put out by the fact that you have to spend a few bucks or a couple hours of your time to get the checks done, than you are for other reasons.(others of you have good arguments).
It's great that you have an aircraft and can take a kid up once in a while. But to make it sound like the time it takes to get the check done is just too much, or the 50 bucks is too much, is pretty insulting to all the other volunteers that spend 100's of hours and some times 100's of dollars to get the credentials to coach your kids hockey team every year (or whatever).

[MrWings]

You don't have a right to volunteer anywhere, on your terms.

Don't like it? Run for office.

I have been part of several volunteer organizations. Feedback from volunteers is extremely valuable. When they get disgruntled and leave without providing a reason, there is no opportunity to make changes that may make your organization better.

You don't have to be on a board of directors to make changes. Grassroots can provide that impetus.

Ultimately, vulnerable sector checks for COPA for Kids may be a non-issue. And it may not change regardless of how much dissent is raised. But simply ignoring front line voices is ignorant.

[digits_]

It's great that you have an aircraft and can take a kid up once in a while. But to make it sound like the time it takes to get the check done is just too much, or the 50 bucks is too much, is pretty insulting to all the other volunteers that spend 100's of hours and some times 100's of dollars to get the credentials to coach your kids hockey team every year (or whatever).

Yes and no. I don't think anyone owns an airplane just for COPA for Kids, but the fact is that an airplane is required to operate at COPA for Kids. That is worth tens of thousands of dollars. Even if only a small part, let's say 5% or 10% of those costs is related to the kids flights, it is still a pretty significant value that is being offered for free by the pilots. If you compare it to your example, the pilots are not offering 100s of hours of their time, but they are offering a few thousand dollars worth of equipment and skill. They choose to mainly offer money instead of time. If you add the time requirement to get the police check into the equation, this time sensitive group might just back out.

To further compare it to your example: would the coaching volunteers go through all the cost and time to get the credentials if they only got to coach one match? An extra 2 hours to get the police certificate if you've already spent 100 hours/year on the coaching, could be easier to explain than to spend an extra 2 hours if you are only able/willing/planning to offer 1 day of aircraft volunteering. It's a different situation.

Also, if given the choice, would the coaching volunteers prefer to get rid of some of the requirements, or do they value it as an indication of competency and/or a safety indicator?

In the end, people voluntarily choose to volunteer. Comparing how many hours one volunteers as a bit of pressure for others to volunteer more, is not really productive in that regard. Something to consider, definitely, but not necessarily very helpful.

[rookiepilot]

You don't have to be on a board of directors to make changes. Grassroots can provide that impetus.

Ultimately, vulnerable sector checks for COPA for Kids may be a non-issue. And it may not change regardless of how much dissent is raised. But simply ignoring front line voices is ignorant.

Your words might be true.

Its the comments that don't seem to appreciate the countless volunteer hours involved in leadership of an organization, and the thought that goes into making difficult decisions involving kids that I don't get. Do you all think they flipped a coin to make this decision?

If you've been involved you're aware how difficult that can be to address competing interests.

Those commenting, take the time and write a polite letter to your COPA board member, or better yet jump in the car and go meet them in person with constructive thoughts, and perhaps the issues will be better understood by all.

[photofly]

Do you all think they flipped a coin to make this decision?

It's possible. We are talking about COPA, after all.

[7ECA]

News flash to the entitled sounding:

A bit tacky to quote myself, but I'm trying to make it into a thing: Digits's Law!

Gotta say, that's a brilliant thing and it certainly should be a new internet law - at least on AvCanada.

Don't like it? Run for office. As I understand it, COPA directors are unpaid volunteers too.

It is a COPA for Kids organizer who asked for feedback.
Do you run for prime minister everytime you disagree with a Canadian law/policy?

Nah, he prefers to get on AvCanada and whine about so-called "millennial entitlement" and the downfall of Old Stock values, etc.

[DougRonan]

I am actually one of the current Board Members of COPA that some of you here speak favorably of and some not so much. I was not part of the discussion/decision to have these background checks so I can't comment to what the rational was in implementing this new policy. The main reason why I would like to comment on this thread is that - as in a lot of things these days - some people here have lost sight of whats important. The most important thing with COPA For Kids - (I can't believe I have to actual write this!) is THE KIDS! Two main things are important about these aforementioned kids - FIRST - their safety/security and SECOND - that they get to experience the "Joy of Flight". Both of these things are equally important - you can't have one without the other.

Some of you people are acting like spending $25 and a couple of hrs of your time to get a background check is on par with donating a kidney. I personally take getting kids involved with flying and taking kids flying very seriously. It is our future - we were all a kid or a young adult or even an adult when we got infected with "aviation" - someone took time out of their day, spent some gas money, put a bit of wear and tear on their plane - for you to get into flying. I was taken flying in a 180 on floats when I was 14 years old - that one ride changed my life profoundly - I have now been 30 plus years working in aviation - it is my whole life!!

I have spent years and quite literally thousands of dollars to get every kid I come in contact with interested in flying - I currently have 6 young people I'm mentoring to get their licence - one 19 yr old passed his Private Flight test today - 5 of them own airplanes that I gave up thousands of dollars to get them into cheap. It is absolutely shameful to think that the guy with that 180 on floats that took me for a ride or anyone of the people that got any one of you into flying would have not done so over $25 - think very carefully about how absurd that really is!! Please look at the big picture here!!

[jakeandelwood]

Maybe I'm wrong, but some of you come off as more put out by the fact that you have to spend a few bucks or a couple hours of your time to get the checks done, than you are for other reasons.(others of you have good arguments).
It's great that you have an aircraft and can take a kid up once in a while. But to make it sound like the time it takes to get the check done is just too much, or the 50 bucks is too much, is pretty insulting to all the other volunteers that spend 100's of hours and some times 100's of dollars to get the credentials to coach your kids hockey team every year (or whatever).

It's not just about that, I personally spend a huge amount of my time working overtime to be able to have the luxury of owning my own plane, so if a volunteer is willing to let your kid enjoy that for free you have to realize that it's not just the time of the flight, it's all the effort the owner has done to keep that aircraft airworthy, whether the owners does the maintenance or they work for a paycheque and pay someone else to do it. I get very little time off work and if I'm going to donate a day to fly a kid around for free that's all I'm going to have time to do. I'm not going to spend time bothering getting a police check and have to take time off work to do so because their office only does them on weekdays. I just wouldn't have the time to do any more than the flight, just my reality.

[digits_]

I personally take getting kids involved with flying and taking kids flying very seriously. It is our future - we were all a kid or a young adult or even an adult when we got infected with "aviation" - someone took time out of their day, spent some gas money, put a bit of wear and tear on their plane - for you to get into flying.

I think most of us in this topic do. That is why we are concerned that this needless red tape is going to scare some people off. Even if it is just one pilot that can't fly, that is one less kid that gets to fly for free. One kid that could miss his future in aviation.

And for what. For a piece of paper?

Does the police check improve the experience of the kid? No it doesn't.

It is absolutely shameful to think that the guy with that 180 on floats that took me for a ride or anyone of the people that got any one of you into flying would have not done so over $25 - think very carefully about how absurd that really is!! Please look at the big picture here!!

He could have. He could have forgotten about the requirement, not have applied in time, not have known you can't just pick it up the same day.

The big picture is that useless paperwork and fear mongering has to come to a stop. If a rule doesn't have any positive effect, it shouldn't be imposed/enforced just to cover someone's butt or because it is fashionable to do so.

[charrois]

I am actually one of the current Board Members of COPA that some of you here speak favorably of and some not so much.

Thanks for weighing in! For the most part, I'm quite happy with the representation that COPA offers and I know that the board members do everything they can to promote and protect aviation. However, in this case, as I've mentioned in a previous post, I think the decision isn't in the best interests of the program.

The most important thing with COPA For Kids - (I can't believe I have to actual write this!) is THE KIDS!

I agree completely. And this is precisely why I think this is the wrong decision. I don't believe the decision was made primarily in the interest of the kids (especially considering there has never been a single incident in the history of the program), but instead it has to do with perceived liability to COPA and the program. In the big picture, this will result in reduced availability for pilots, which will result in less kids getting the experience. Not to say an issue can never arise in the future, but we can't possibly predict and insulate ourselves from every possibility. In the history of my involvement in the program, I've never once been asked by a parent asking if a police check has been done on the pilots. They apparently aren't concerned of this being a particular risk factor - why do we trust ourselves less than they trust us?

I have spent years and quite literally thousands of dollars to get every kid I come in contact with interested in flying

That's great - and an attitude shared by the vast majority of the pilots who do volunteer for COPA for Kids, so I think everyone involved is on the same page. We all want to do everything we can to expose as many kids as possible to aviation. Which is why I'll strongly support every effort to expand the program, and oppose changes which will have the effect of reducing it.

It is absolutely shameful to think that the guy with that 180 on floats that took me for a ride or anyone of the people that got any one of you into flying would have not done so over $25 - think very carefully about how absurd that really is!!

OK - so let's use that example. When the guy with the 180 offered to take you for a ride, was your (or your parents') first reaction to say "not unless you have a police check"? I'm sure he offered out of his own generosity, as does every COPA for Kids pilot I've ever met. The $25 is immaterial, but if you were to have questioned his integrity, he would have gone on his merry way without you and you would have never had that life changing experience.

Most of the pilots I've talked to have no issue over the $25 or whatever it costs. It's a drop in the bucket compared to what they are already contributing. For those who have an issue with the new requirement for a police check, its usually either:

a) "Looking a gift horse in the mouth", after having already offered to volunteer their time, aircraft, and expenses. Most pilots take their reputation very seriously, and it can be insulting to some when this reputation is questioned.
b) In honesty, many (most) people are procrastinators. Even if a pilot has every intention of getting a police check done, many will leave it too late to be involved in their local event. And some will figure that spending a couple of hours to get a police check done for a volunteer role they're only going to spend a couple of hours at anyway just isn't worth the trouble.

I'm not saying either of those scenarios are completely justified, but in reality both will negatively impact the involvement of local pilots. It's nice to think this decision is in the best interest of the kids, but when the dust settles, it's not.

Personally as a COPA for Kids pilot, I'll jump through the hoop of getting the check done if it's required - continuing to give the kids the experience of flight is far more important to me than anything else.

But I'm also a COPA for Kids organizer. That's a whole different story. Many of the pilots I've discussed this new requirement with are opposed to it. Some will likely refuse on principle due to (a). And realistically, many of the rest will fall into item (b) - a large portion of my pilots are "last minute" commitment types. Realistically, I'm planning to have half the pilots I normally do at the next event I hold. This will have a very detrimental impact on the number of kids we can take. We have no problem at all attracting kids - our events have averaged around 130 kids each (not bad for a rural part of the country with a population in the surrounding area of only around 10,000). We do have a problem though getting enough pilots to meet the interest, and how will turning kids away help the program? This will only make things that much harder.

Though I know the decision was made with pure intentions, I fear it was not properly thought out, as I can't see it being anything other than a detriment to the program.

Dan

[DougRonan]

Just a quick note - unfortunately this not a "COPA" driven issue - this is an industry/society issue. As a bunch of people have stated here, this is pretty standard practice for anybody dealing with kids. I'm sure COPA is not happy that they have to impose this extra burden on our CFK volunteers but it is not their doing - it is the climate we live in in 2018. So with that said unfortunately we may lose some volunteer pilots with this new rule but I would hope that the majority of you will preserver and continue to support the program. Again - COPA really appreciates the volunteers that take up their time and the use of their airplanes for the kids of this country to get an initial taste of flight and I hope that we can get past this and continue this great program - it is vitally important to the future of aviation!! Most of us here are a product of someone taking us for that initial airplane ride!

[photofly]

No, Doug, with great respect, that won’t wash. It’s only the climate we live in because everyone is ready to make it the climate we live in. COPA is not compelled either by law or force of nature to do this. it may be a good decision, a wise decision, the right decision, but it’s a decision, a choice, and someone has to own it.