COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
aeroncasuperchief
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:54 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:05 am

I support the CFK program, and I support security/safety procedures that are effective. I don't support security theatre, that satisfies someone's desire to "do something" when it doesn't address the issues.

Require security checks for all CFK volunteers, or don't require security checks at all. Until this is fixed, I will be standing down from the program.

Who could have spoken the truth in a more succinctly manner than this poster ( emphasis mine )
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1145
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by C.W.E. » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:12 am

I wouldn't even consider being part of this program.

Life is difficult enough without worrying that my colleagues in aviation think I am a child molester so seriously I need to be examined by some group of similar thinking people.
---------- ADS -----------
  

aeroncasuperchief
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:54 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:45 am

In Penticton BC, the police chief is saying that vehicle owners should be CHARGED if they leave their cars unlocked! Another case of the innocent being blamed for the thief's actions ! In our Liberal, lawless valley, the criminals go through the legal system like a continuous revolving door, the laws are a joke and the system is broken, and the innocent are continually revictimized!
---------- ADS -----------
  

aeroncasuperchief
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:54 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:53 am

the police chief is saying that vehicle owners should be CHARGED if they leave their cars unlocked
My apologies, it was councillor Campbell Watt who said "I'd almost like to see us create a bylaw that tickets unlocked vehicles"
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
AirFrame
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:35 am

Schooner69A wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:46 am
Think what would happen if a security check was required for all and many said "Eff it!".
If that's what they did, I wouldn't be standing down. I would agree that it's a reasonable action to take. But to require *only* the pilots, who have the smallest window of opportunity to interfere with a child at a CFK event, is insane. I'm disappointed in the COPA board for agreeing to this, but i'm also not impressed with an insurance company that thinks it will improve their bottom line.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Schooner69A
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 517
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:17 pm
Location: The Okanagan

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Schooner69A » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:23 am

"If that's what they did, I wouldn't be standing down"

You and I do it because we like flying. (I'm presuming you're a pilot).

However, many of our ground support staff are not and if they think the same way you do, the whole program could falter.

I think it unconscionable that insurance companies won't insure an octogenarian if he/she is a new customer or if there's been a lapse in policy but will continue coverage if there's a policy in existence. However, it's their circus; their rules.

So, if COPA's insurance company says: "Here's the rules to continue doing what you're doing", you either fish or cut bait.

I'll be going fishing in the new year...
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
AirFrame
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:41 am

Schooner69A wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:23 am
You and I do it because we like flying. (I'm presuming you're a pilot).

However, many of our ground support staff are not and if they think the same way you do, the whole program could falter.
I'm not sure what the demographics of the support staff are for other CFK events, but the ones i've been involved in have been predominantly staffed by pilots and spouses of pilots. Not all of the pilots bring their planes out for it (a Cessna 172 or Piper can carry 3 kids per flight as opposed to a Cessna 150 or an RV, so the larger planes are more efficient for running large numbers of kids through) but the pilots still want to help out.

We've had a hard time getting enough pilots to fly in the past, I think this will just drive more of them away and the whole program will falter anyway. Time will tell, this will come up at the next club meeting so it will be interesting to hear what people there think. We do have a couple of teachers in the club who I think already have the security check, so they can speak to it.
---------- ADS -----------
  

aeroncasuperchief
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:54 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:14 am

so the larger planes are more efficient for running large numbers of kids through) but the pilots still want to help out.
Sounds to me like an overnight CARGO operation!

When I attended a CFK event, I took the time to teach the children how the plane flies and let them all fly the plane while many others were treating the kids like cargo ( Were they there to get their volunteering badges ?)
I HOPE things have changed !
---------- ADS -----------
  

Wilbur
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1181
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:26 am

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Wilbur » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:08 pm

Haven’t read through the entire thread, so not sure if any has already covered this off. There’s little to no risk of a pedophile pilot molesting some kid during a 20 minute flight. However, a pilot who is a pedophile will very likely seize the opportunity to meet kids, start building relationships, meet parents and start building trust. The initial CFK flight leads to an offer to take the family flying on another day, which eventually leads to taking little Johnny or Susie flying without the parents. A few flights without the parents involve incrementally sexulized conversations and ultimately physical contact. The whole process is called grooming. Make no mistake, pedophiles are always looking for opportunities to access and groom victims. Any event, activity or organization targeting kids will unintentionally also be attracting pedophiles. VSS screening will at least deter the pedophiles known to law enforcement. A VSS check takes about 30 minutes at your local police station. Fill out a form, provide electronic finger prints and you’re done. I’ve never heard of a police service charge a fee for people volunteering, although there may be some that do. However, be aware that a VSS covers all types of criminal behaviour victimizing individual people. Sex offences, financial crimes, theft, robbery, assault, etc are all included.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1493
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by rookiepilot » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:13 pm

Wilbur wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:08 pm
Haven’t read through the entire thread, so not sure if any has already covered this off. There’s little to no risk of a pedophile pilot molesting some kid during a 20 minute flight. However, a pilot who is a pedophile will very likely seize the opportunity to meet kids, start building relationships, meet parents and start building trust.
This. Exactly.

I really wonder about those who are eager to volunteer with kids and yet voraciously complain about such a simple requirement.

To blend with the other thread -- we are moving rapidly towards a world that bashes "traditional family" Christians as bigots -----already happening -- and protects the pedophiles as entitled to take advantage of children.

Just watch the laws being proposed out there. (Not necessarily in Canada -- yet)

How horrifying.
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1145
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by C.W.E. » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:01 pm

I really wonder about those who are eager to volunteer with kids and yet voraciously complain about such a simple requirement.

To blend with the other thread -- we are moving rapidly towards a world that bashes "traditional family" Christians as bigots -----already happening -- and protects the pedophiles as entitled to take advantage of children.

Interesting thoughts, thinking back on things I have said here such as I would not do volunteer flights with kids again if I had to go through a mandatory police check and I am an Atheist I guess in the eyes of some I could be a paedophile and an anti christian heathen.

But I will do my best to try and live with all this.

Society sure can be perplexing.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Wilbur
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1181
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:26 am

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Wilbur » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:25 pm

If had a dollar for every pervert I worked with who had a bible tucked under his arm, I could have retired years earlier. If your god is the only thing keeping you from harming others, you need mental health care.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
AirFrame
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:33 am

Wilbur wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:08 pm
Haven’t read through the entire thread, so not sure if any has already covered this off. There’s little to no risk of a pedophile pilot molesting some kid during a 20 minute flight. However, a pilot who is a pedophile will very likely seize the opportunity to meet kids, start building relationships, meet parents and start building trust.
And a pilot who's a pedophile and wants to meet kids and start building relationships, will simply volunteer to assist on the CFK day instead. Because the ground crew isn't required to get a background check. So they get past the VSS screening, *and* they get more time with the kids! All of the stuff about offering to fly another day can still happen.
rookiepilot wrote:I really wonder about those who are eager to volunteer with kids and yet voraciously complain about such a simple requirement.
Security theatre, which this is, does not deserve support. Make the requirement mandatory for everyone at the CFK event, and I will support it 100%.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Schooner69A
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 517
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:17 pm
Location: The Okanagan

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Schooner69A » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:46 am

Airframe:

I wasn't quite clear in my response to which you replied.

Most of our ground support staff are also pilots and spouses; however, what I did not make clear is that, although they are pilots, they do not fly in C4K events: either they don't have an aircraft, don't have access to an aircraft, don't have a valid licence, or don't insure their aircraft for the event.


We have C4K pilots who have strong feelings about the process and have indicated they will not participate: can you imagine what would happen if there existed a requirement to do all non-flying personnel as well?

I agree that the security check is a nonsensical requirement; but it is not the doing of COPA; if we're going to sling crotte at anyone, it should be the insurance company.

One of our members is undergoing the check now and will report back - probably at the next meeting.
---------- ADS -----------
  

aeroncasuperchief
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:54 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:58 am

2 words yellow jackets!
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
5x5
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1452
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:30 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by 5x5 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:04 am

Just wondering, does anyone have any personal knowledge of even a single instance of a volunteer pilot - or for that matter a volunteer of any kind - at this type of aviation event being a pedophile? Any documented evidence of any such occurrence?
---------- ADS -----------
  
Being stupid around airplanes is a capital offence and nature is a hanging judge!

“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1493
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by rookiepilot » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:31 am

AirFrame wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:33 am
Wilbur wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:08 pm
Haven’t read through the entire thread, so not sure if any has already covered this off. There’s little to no risk of a pedophile pilot molesting some kid during a 20 minute flight. However, a pilot who is a pedophile will very likely seize the opportunity to meet kids, start building relationships, meet parents and start building trust.
And a pilot who's a pedophile and wants to meet kids and start building relationships, will simply volunteer to assist on the CFK day instead. Because the ground crew isn't required to get a background check. So they get past the VSS screening, *and* they get more time with the kids! All of the stuff about offering to fly another day can still happen.
rookiepilot wrote:I really wonder about those who are eager to volunteer with kids and yet voraciously complain about such a simple requirement.
Security theatre, which this is, does not deserve support. Make the requirement mandatory for everyone at the CFK event, and I will support it 100%.
I'm not opposed to everyone involved having the same requirement. It's really up to COPA and the insurance companies' risk assessment of contact at events. I think Wilbur's comments nail it.

I've done the check and don't recall it being a big deal.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1493
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by rookiepilot » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:37 am

Wilbur wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:25 pm
If had a dollar for every pervert I worked with who had a bible tucked under his arm, I could have retired years earlier. If your god is the only thing keeping you from harming others, you need mental health care.
I support your other comments about police checks -- which I have done myself, but your blanket characterization is as inaccurate as if you said it about the LGTBQ, soccer coaches, or any other community --

People regretfully hurt other people, from every community you can name.
---------- ADS -----------
  

C-GKNT
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 210
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:49 pm
Location: Red Deer, AB

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by C-GKNT » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:03 pm

COPA for kids is a Canadian "knock-off" of Young Eagles. We used to do Young Eagles but switched because our club had more COPA vs. EAA members (albeit by a small margin).

Young Eagles has a background check as well but it is not as "invasive". Further their online "in the background" support is superior. COPA for kids additional insurance is superior but with the weak CDN$ the difference is not a significant as it once was. In order for the liability to extend to the ground crew, a rally must be held under an EAA Chapter. In the absence of an EAA Chapter, it can be done in conjunction with an EAA Field Representative (which I have been for 10+ years and is trivial to sign up for).

At our next meeting I am going to propose that our flying club goes back to doing EAA Young Eagles. It's all about the kids and there are alternatives.

Glenn
---------- ADS -----------
  

digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:41 pm

C-GKNT wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:03 pm
COPA for kids additional insurance is superior but with the weak CDN$ the difference is not a significant as it once was.
Hi Glenn,

what is the advantage for a pilot volunteer to have the COPA for kids insurance vs just going flying with kids hemselves?
---------- ADS -----------
  

C-GKNT
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 210
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:49 pm
Location: Red Deer, AB

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by C-GKNT » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:02 pm

digits_ wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:41 pm
Hi Glenn,

what is the advantage for a pilot volunteer to have the COPA for kids insurance vs just going flying with kids hemselves?
Assuming you follow the program guidelines, COPA for kids adds $2MM in extra liability insurance (Young Eagles $1MM US). COPA adds $5MM liability insurance for any COPA event which would cover the ground volunteers as well.

Under both programs the minimum liability insurance you need to participate is $100,000. If that is all you carry it is a significant benefit.

Aviation is meant to be shared...In a good year, I'll give rides to around 100 people with 1/2 of that under COPA for kids or Young Eagles. I carry a $2MM smooth limit on my aircraft and am comfortable with that but extra insurance never hurts.

Glenn
---------- ADS -----------
  

Schooner69A
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 517
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:17 pm
Location: The Okanagan

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Schooner69A » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:27 pm

Further to the C4K/Young Eagles thing:

When the switch was made, it was explained that the EAA couldn't/wouldn't insure future Canadian participation.

Anybody got any info on that?
---------- ADS -----------
  

CanadianBird
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:08 am

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by CanadianBird » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:44 pm

AirFrame wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:35 am
Schooner69A wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:46 am
Think what would happen if a security check was required for all and many said "Eff it!".
If that's what they did, I wouldn't be standing down. I would agree that it's a reasonable action to take. But to require *only* the pilots, who have the smallest window of opportunity to interfere with a child at a CFK event, is insane. I'm disappointed in the COPA board for agreeing to this, but i'm also not impressed with an insurance company that thinks it will improve their bottom line.
I don't think that's where it would "happen". The ones that don't get caught are the smart ones. Primary example would be Graham James. Even when he was arrested, current WHL coaches who knew him didn't believe it. I feel that what they're trying to do is:
1- Ensure that aviation isn't a "segway" for child molesters to find, and approach potential victims.
2- Prevent a lawsuit further down the line, because they didn't have due diligence with #1.

I really don't see the big deal here. If you don't have anything to hide, what's the problem? And yes, I have had background checks done. And YES, I have had to go for secondary screening, due to the fact I apparently share the same birthdate as one of those scum.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Wilbur
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1181
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:26 am

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Wilbur » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:20 pm

Rookie, I wasn’t characterizing all or most people of faith as perverts, or implying religious people are more likely to be so. Rather, I was simply making the point that many sex offenders use religion for cover. Talking about your faith tends to work better at building trust than does talking about your sexual orientation or most other things in life.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1493
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by rookiepilot » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:51 pm

Wilbur wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:20 pm
Rookie, I wasn’t characterizing all or most people of faith as perverts, or implying religious people are more likely to be so. Rather, I was simply making the point that many sex offenders use religion for cover. Talking about your faith tends to work better at building trust than does talking about your sexual orientation or most other things in life.
Gotcha.

Sadly, Don't disagree this probably happens. Though could be an expressed passion for soccer" too, Ect...other kids sports -- or other things used for cover.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”