COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

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rookiepilot
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by rookiepilot » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:38 pm

photofly wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:26 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:13 pm

We get it from your multiple posts. You're offended.

Personally, I'm sick of people offended about everything. .
Oh my goodness. Look in the mirror, Mr "stop giving my money to BBD"!
Clearly a problem with relevance in your example.

I'm not given a choice with my taxpayer dollars but to support an incompetent CEO and Board, who can't even show up for his own layoff announcement. If you believe so much in Bombardier, give them all your retirement dough. It shouldn't be forced on the rest of us. And I've written the finance minister to tell him directly.

I am given a choice with Volunteering with children, which I have within the context of a humanitarian organization, where I do some teaching. I saw a need that was not being addressed. So rather then whine about it, that "someone else should do better" -- I have committed many hundreds of hours to volunteering.

The choice upfront there was -- Accept that a police check is required, or don't volunteer. Simple.

If you don't agree with COPA's policies, there is a choice for any pilot -- Run for the board of directors. Make a difference.

PS: For the uninformed: Most organizations that work with children extensively have "plan to protect" policies that are designed to attempt to protect the children under their care. I've seen these plans and helped formulate them. Police checks are only one part of this. Well run organizations take this very seriously.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:50 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:38 pm
For the uninformed: Most organizations that work with children extensively have "plan to protect" policies that are designed to attempt to protect the children under their care. I've seen these plans and helped formulate them. Police checks are only one part of this. Well run organizations take this very seriously.
And why are these plans in place? Because teachers have abused students, coaches have abused kids. It is a small but realistic concern.

Once again I kindly ask the pro police check posters to provide an example of a passenger of a single crew airplane being abused by the pilot.

Compare that to the amount of single crew general aviation airplanes that crash during the year.

Will a police check for COPA Kids make *any* difference in the amount of children that get abused?
Will the required police check affect the amount of kids that can be taken up for a ride?

The negatives outweigh the positives in this case.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by photofly » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:52 pm

If you don't agree with COPA's policies, there is a choice for any pilot -- Run for the board of directors. Make a difference.
Or, if you're a COPA member, you could write to your representative on the board with your suggestions. Most membership organizations are polite enough NOT to throw suggestions back in their members’ faces with "if you don't like it, go elsewhere or run this organization yourself." They actually encourage the membership to speak up.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by rookiepilot » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:16 pm

photofly wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:52 pm
If you don't agree with COPA's policies, there is a choice for any pilot -- Run for the board of directors. Make a difference.
Or, if you're a COPA member, you could write to your representative on the board with your suggestions. Most membership organizations are polite enough NOT to throw suggestions back in their members’ faces with "if you don't like it, go elsewhere or run this organization yourself." They actually encourage the membership to speak up.
Excellent idea.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by Longtimer » Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:13 pm

In the past I have volunteered to work in a number of areas dealing with juvenile's, all required a police check in attempt to protect the children. I never felt that was a problem ……. I wonder why some would?
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by atphat » Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:30 pm

Longtimer wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:13 pm
In the past I have volunteered to work in a number of areas dealing with juvenile's, all required a police check in attempt to protect the children. I never felt that was a problem ……. I wonder why some would?
Exactly. Working with children without a check isn't against your human rights. The lady doth protest too much.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by jakeandelwood » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:55 pm

Like Digits said I'd be more worried about the pilots experience, skill and the condition of the aircraft than anything else.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by charrois » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:39 pm

I'm glad the posting I made has stirred up some healthy discussion on the issue. As with most things, there are obviously several points of view and everyone is entitled to their opinion and their right to defend it.

When I started the discussion I wanted my initial post to remain neutral so we had a good unbiased start to the flow of discussion - but now I wanted to weigh in with my own opinion.

(TL;DR) Though there are obvious pros and cons, I personally feel the cons far outweigh the pros - in other words, I'm opposed to the new check. My reasons have been echoed by many others here, but in summary:

I have to wear two different hats here. I organize a very active COPA for Kids event, as well as volunteer as a pilot both for this event, as well as other nearby ones hosted by other COPA chapters. As a pilot, even though I personally think the check unnecessary, I'll just get it done - as others have pointed out here, the important thing is giving kids this incredible experience, not standing on principle, and I'm sufficiently involved and invested in the program that it's worth my time. But as an organizer, I know it's going to be much more difficult to get pilots, and that will do nothing except hurt the program.

First of all, the notion that "everyone else does it" for me has never been a reason to just blindly follow suit (the notion of jumping off a bridge comes to mind). Of course, if everyone else does something, there might be a good reason for it, that may or may not apply to a particular situation (if the bridge is on fire, everyone may have a good reason for jumping :-) Claiming that everyone else does it means that certainly the option should be considered, but that on its own isn't sufficient to make the decision to do so as well. And I inherently rebel against society's continuing trend towards "guilty until proven innocent". Yes, even that is another of those "everyone else does it so it must be okay" excuses. "Society is changing" only when we allow it to.

I've mentioned this new requirement to some pilots I know who fly for us. Though I know that some of you have commented positively on the requirement here (and I respect your opinion), at least of the pilots I know personally, none of them who have gotten back to me have considered it to be a good idea. Some of them are effectively neutral - rolling their eyes and muttering about "red tape", but plan to have the check done to continue to be involved - whether they'll get around to doing so before an event rolls around remains to be seen. Most alarming is the sizeable number who feel insulted that after having offered their substantial time and financial commitment to participating they are now being asked to do yet more (and being treated like a potential criminal in the process) for the "privilege" of being able to continue to do so. And I see their point. None of them have said they can't afford it, but the common thread seems to be that many will refuse "on principle". Whether I can convince them that the common good outweighs their principles remains to be seen; at the same time I also consider that they shouldn't have to abandon their principles to be involved. I've also heard from pilots saying that the only reason they were members of COPA in the first place was to participate in COPA for Kids, and this may likely be the straw that breaks the camel's back. They want to help, but find it discouraging that in addition to donating their time and aircraft, they also have to pay COPA membership dues and now also go through the hassle of a police check.

For those pilots who have grudgingly agreed to have the check done, some of them won't get around to it until it's too late. For most pilots, money is not the issue, but the hassle, time, and making it a priority to get done sufficiently early prior to an event certainly is.

It is also important to note that there is no legal requirement for an organization dealing with kids to have the check done. They are free to make their own decisions on whether or not they think it would be advantageous.

Along with the "everyone else does it" argument, people give examples of volunteer situations where they require it. But different sectors have different opportunities for risk. The opportunities for risk associated with a coach in a locker room for extended periods of time with kids when they're changing is very different than a busy pilot in an aircraft for 15 minutes with kids they haven't met before. I have no idea how the mind of a pedophile works, but I'd have to expect there are far easier avenues to exploit youth than becoming a pilot for COPA for Kids. And pilots are rather a close knit community already; for the most part we know each other. I'd like to hope we are welcoming to newcomers, but it's not that people walk up from out of nowhere all that often.

For decisions like this, the pros and cons need to be weighed. The cons are clear - we will lose some pilots, and with that we will be taking fewer kids. Whether it comes to pilots feeling insulted by asking for more of them than they're already giving and their refusing "on principle", or whether they'll grudgingly agree to it but just not get around to it until it's too late, there is no question that participation will go down; it certainly would have no reason to increase. What's not clear is by how much. From the initial reactions I've received, it's quite conceivable that only half of my pilots will be willing and get around to having the police check done. This means we can only offer the experience to half as many kids. But the notion that a pilot's reluctance to have a check done implies that they have something to hide would be offensive to the extreme.

So, what are the "pros" that we are gaining? The parents of the children don't care; I've never once been asked if our pilots have passed some kind of criminal check. The reputation of the industry is one of trust and respect (which I'd like to think is well-earned). After all, the parents are already trusting us with the lives of their children - what could possibly be more valuable that that? Instead, the only goal of this move is to potentially increase liability insulation against a situation that may or may not ever happen (there has not been a single case of an incident throughout the history of COPA for Kids). But is this even effective? Passing a police check only helps against known pedophiles; it does nothing against people who may have those tendencies but haven't yet been convicted. And is this the most significant risk to our liability anyway? As others have stated, although everyone's aircraft has to have passed its annual, we all know that some aircraft are just better maintained than others.. and some pilots more current and/or competent than others. Plus, even the best maintained aircraft can have issues. What about potential medical issues that may have arisen since a pilot's last medical that they might not even know about themselves? Or what about the potential for suicidal pilots? Should every pilot have to undergo a psychological evaluation before every COPA for Kids event? Where do we draw the line?

We already have a waiver that parents sign and agree to. Amongst other things, it states that they understand and accept the risk that "Serious injury or death can result from many causes, including aircraft crashes, falls, pilot error, ground crew error, engine or mechanical failure, negligent maintenance, defects in runways, interference by birds and other objects, weather conditions, contaminated fuel, or hard or forced landings. Injuries could be minor such as bruises, scratches and sprains; major such as eye injuries, broken bones and concussions; or catastrophic such as one or more of paralysis, severe burns, and death." Maybe psychological trauma should also be added to the list (perhaps it should be regardless of whether the pilots have police checks or not - there have been a couple of kids I've taken up that were quite clearly relieved when we once again landed). Or maybe more specific wording could be used simply stating that the pilots are volunteering their time, aircraft, and many expenses without compensation but have not necessarily undergone a police check and your children fly at their own risk of any actions undertaken by the pilot. I'm sure a lawyer could write up something better, and it doesn't have to sound necessarily so sinister. But the point I'm making is even if such a statement was added to the liability waiver, we would lose far fewer kids than we would with fewer pilots participating. Plus, our liability would be covered even better than by a police check, since it would encompass potential action by anyone, not just known pedophiles.

There are those who say that if even one potential incident is eliminated, it's worth it. Though I don't disagree, I question whether this is the right way to go about this. Piloting is about risk management, not risk elimination. Some pilots choose to fly twins. A case could be made that two engines is always better than one (or even that 4 is better than 2). Yet many (most?) of us fly singles because we've decided that this level of risk is acceptable. I'd argue that the same applies here. And remember, this isn't really about protecting the children, it's about the perception that we are protecting ourselves from liability. If you're the sort of person that considers that *any* risk is too much risk, it's time to turn in your pilot's license and curl up in bed.

I'll get off my soapbox now. Some may consider me naive to be thinking pedophilia isn't a serious risk worth protecting our liability against. I on the other hand consider people naive if they think the "one size fits all" solution of having a police check done is the most appropriate way of handling that risk and that this won't have at least some degree of negative impact to the program. At least this topic seems to have brought up some healthy debate on the issue. And yes, I know this message is long - if you read this far, it's because you chose to do so :-)

Dan
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by C-GKNT » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:54 pm

I am an EAA Young Eagles (YE) Field Representative and I was the main organizer for COPA for kids (C4K) and previously YE for our local flying club. We have done 2 rallies a year since 2001 and I organized 30+ of them.

I stepped down from the position in our club last year but I still personally fly 50-60 kids a year under C4K or YE.

FWIW, Here are my thoughts.

As mentioned YE has done this for the past few years. I'm guessing either somebody did something stupid and we all have to pay the price or the lawyers got involved and we all have to pay the price. YE does do background checks but we are exempt as at this time as they are unable to do them on Canadians.

I understand the rational behind it but like airport security, I don't see how it is going to make a practical difference to anyone who is determined.

This will however make organizing C4K Rallies MUCH more difficult. The background check just adds barriers to participation in C4K. When we first started we were able to get 9-10 pilots/aircraft to participate just from our local airport. With the recent years of declining general aviation, I have had to reach out to several other clubs to get enough pilots. Sometimes, we run short of pilots due to last minute scheduling or mechanical issues. In the past, I would have sent out a mass e-mail to the other clubs requesting a few pilots a day or 2 before a rally and somebody would always step up and help out. NOW, this will be much more difficult as it is not possible to get a background check in time if pilots who wants to volunteer have not done so before.

Like it or not it exists...this is just part of modern society. Like airport security, this will be just something I will begrudgingly go through.

Glenn
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by HiFlyChick » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:32 am

charrois wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:39 pm
When I started the discussion I wanted my initial post to remain neutral so we had a good unbiased start to the flow of discussion - but now I wanted to weigh in with my own opinion...
Thank-you for your very well thought-out answer, charrois - I only have time to skim it at the moment, but find that you have made some good points and will come back and read it later when I have time to better consider what you've said. A very valid point about risk management, and one that certainly comes into play here...
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame » Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:26 am

atphat wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:09 pm
I stand by what I said. If your are anti police checks I don’t want you anywhere near my kids. Which you won’t be.
So you'll let your kids near the pilots, who will all have police checks now. But what about ground crew, who are currently not required to have checks? How will your kids get through the gauntlet of ground crew who haven't been vetted?

I submit that the people living in the houses on either side of you are a statistically greater risk to your kids than a pilot who only spends 20 minutes with them, usually in the presence of other kids (for a four-place airplane) and sometimes in a position where they can't even *see* or *reach* the kid (when giving rides in a tandem-seat airplane).
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame » Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:41 am

Longtimer wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:13 pm
In the past I have volunteered to work in a number of areas dealing with juvenile's, all required a police check in attempt to protect the children. I never felt that was a problem ……. I wonder why some would?
Simple answer: for the same reason we feel that taking our belts and shoes off at airport security when flying commercially is unnecessary. It's security theatre, designed to placate someone who hasn't thought the entire situation through.

Humans in general are extremely bad at evaluating risk, and equally bad at critical thinking. I agree that someone working for a volunteer organization that spends near 100% of its time working with kids should get that background check. It's a "no-brainer". But to equate that situation to COPA for Kids is asinine. CFK isn't an organization where you're meeting with the same kids weekly, going camping on weekends, etc. etc. The kids show up, meet pilots they've never seen before, in the presence of their parents, and are only out of the parents' sight for 20 minutes during a flight where both the pilot and child are belted into an airplane. And during that 20 minutes the pilot will spend 10 talking to ATC, further reducing time to diddle.

When CFK starts offering weekend flight camps where the parents aren't around, and the kids spend extended periods with the pilots, unsupervised, then my opinion may change.
photofly wrote:I think you need to do some research on how actually to protect your children.
Oh, but that would require that parents take on some responsibility for how their children are raised. Accepting personal responsibility is not a hallmark of the current generation... Much easier to point the finger and say "but [someone else] should have done something!"
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by nbinont » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:56 am

MrWings wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:33 am
nbinont wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:41 pm
Cessna 180 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:08 pm
All I had to do was e-sign a consent form.
Now that is a bit more reasonable. No cost to the pilot and a couple clicks (minimal hassle). Just make sure the consent scope is limited to something reasonable, such as a criminal records check.
Someone is paying for the criminal record check. Do local COPA groups now have to seek donations to cover the criminal record check?
Indeed. The group insisting on this arguably unnecessary criminal record check (COPA) gets to foot the bill. That's only fair.
If you treat your volunteers badly, you won't have volunteers for long. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
Sigh...it's sad that "this is why we can't have nice things"
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:00 am

"It is also important to note that there is no legal requirement for an organization dealing with kids to have the check done. They are free to make their own decisions on whether or not they think it would be advantageous."


Saying it is by principle, or red tape or guilty until proven innocent are just ways of beating around the bush without coming out and admitting to the elephant in the room ! ( Like they used to do in Stalinist Russia )


Can anyone here tell me what I already know ? What is the Elephant in the room?


The beginning of the fix is to say NOOOOOO and stand !
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by aeroncasuperchief » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:09 am

Dan, Being around for 54 years, I would find it difficult to find a better written , intelligent and rational reply such as yours !
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by MrWings » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:52 am

nbinont wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:56 am
Indeed. The group insisting on this arguably unnecessary criminal record check (COPA) gets to foot the bill. That's only fair.
From my research, it appears that several police services and even some provinces offer free vulnerable sector checks to volunteer organizations.

There is still a fee if you have to go through the RCMP.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by rookiepilot » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 am

News flash to the entitled sounding:

You don't have a right to volunteer anywhere, on your terms.

Don't like it? Run for office. As I understand it, COPA directors are unpaid volunteers too.

But that would be too much like work.

The comments here elevate your 20 minute commitment to flying a few kids around as something of importance.

Give it a rest.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:42 am

rookiepilot wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 am
News flash to the entitled sounding:
A bit tacky to quote myself, but I'm trying to make it into a thing: Digits's Law!
rookiepilot wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 am

Don't like it? Run for office. As I understand it, COPA directors are unpaid volunteers too.
It is a COPA for Kids organizer who asked for feedback.
Do you run for prime minister everytime you disagree with a Canadian law/policy?
rookiepilot wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 am
But that would be too much like work.
That's the whole point. It isn't work. So the treshold of how much b*llsh*t people will put up with is much lower.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by groncher » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:25 pm

Maybe I'm wrong, but some of you come off as more put out by the fact that you have to spend a few bucks or a couple hours of your time to get the checks done, than you are for other reasons.(others of you have good arguments).
It's great that you have an aircraft and can take a kid up once in a while. But to make it sound like the time it takes to get the check done is just too much, or the 50 bucks is too much, is pretty insulting to all the other volunteers that spend 100's of hours and some times 100's of dollars to get the credentials to coach your kids hockey team every year (or whatever).
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by MrWings » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:44 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 am
You don't have a right to volunteer anywhere, on your terms.

Don't like it? Run for office.
I have been part of several volunteer organizations. Feedback from volunteers is extremely valuable. When they get disgruntled and leave without providing a reason, there is no opportunity to make changes that may make your organization better.

You don't have to be on a board of directors to make changes. Grassroots can provide that impetus.

Ultimately, vulnerable sector checks for COPA for Kids may be a non-issue. And it may not change regardless of how much dissent is raised. But simply ignoring front line voices is ignorant.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:03 pm

groncher wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:25 pm
It's great that you have an aircraft and can take a kid up once in a while. But to make it sound like the time it takes to get the check done is just too much, or the 50 bucks is too much, is pretty insulting to all the other volunteers that spend 100's of hours and some times 100's of dollars to get the credentials to coach your kids hockey team every year (or whatever).
Yes and no. I don't think anyone owns an airplane just for COPA for Kids, but the fact is that an airplane is required to operate at COPA for Kids. That is worth tens of thousands of dollars. Even if only a small part, let's say 5% or 10% of those costs is related to the kids flights, it is still a pretty significant value that is being offered for free by the pilots. If you compare it to your example, the pilots are not offering 100s of hours of their time, but they are offering a few thousand dollars worth of equipment and skill. They choose to mainly offer money instead of time. If you add the time requirement to get the police check into the equation, this time sensitive group might just back out.

To further compare it to your example: would the coaching volunteers go through all the cost and time to get the credentials if they only got to coach one match? An extra 2 hours to get the police certificate if you've already spent 100 hours/year on the coaching, could be easier to explain than to spend an extra 2 hours if you are only able/willing/planning to offer 1 day of aircraft volunteering. It's a different situation.

Also, if given the choice, would the coaching volunteers prefer to get rid of some of the requirements, or do they value it as an indication of competency and/or a safety indicator?

In the end, people voluntarily choose to volunteer. Comparing how many hours one volunteers as a bit of pressure for others to volunteer more, is not really productive in that regard. Something to consider, definitely, but not necessarily very helpful.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by rookiepilot » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:51 pm

MrWings wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:44 pm

You don't have to be on a board of directors to make changes. Grassroots can provide that impetus.

Ultimately, vulnerable sector checks for COPA for Kids may be a non-issue. And it may not change regardless of how much dissent is raised. But simply ignoring front line voices is ignorant.
Your words might be true.

Its the comments that don't seem to appreciate the countless volunteer hours involved in leadership of an organization, and the thought that goes into making difficult decisions involving kids that I don't get. Do you all think they flipped a coin to make this decision?

If you've been involved you're aware how difficult that can be to address competing interests.

Those commenting, take the time and write a polite letter to your COPA board member, or better yet jump in the car and go meet them in person with constructive thoughts, and perhaps the issues will be better understood by all.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by photofly » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:33 pm

Do you all think they flipped a coin to make this decision?
It's possible. We are talking about COPA, after all.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by 7ECA » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:59 pm

digits_ wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:42 am
rookiepilot wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 am
News flash to the entitled sounding:
A bit tacky to quote myself, but I'm trying to make it into a thing: Digits's Law!
Gotta say, that's a brilliant thing and it certainly should be a new internet law - at least on AvCanada.
digits_ wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:42 am
rookiepilot wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 am

Don't like it? Run for office. As I understand it, COPA directors are unpaid volunteers too.
It is a COPA for Kids organizer who asked for feedback.
Do you run for prime minister everytime you disagree with a Canadian law/policy?
Nah, he prefers to get on AvCanada and whine about so-called "millennial entitlement" and the downfall of Old Stock values, etc.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by DougRonan » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:48 pm

I am actually one of the current Board Members of COPA that some of you here speak favorably of and some not so much. I was not part of the discussion/decision to have these background checks so I can't comment to what the rational was in implementing this new policy. The main reason why I would like to comment on this thread is that - as in a lot of things these days - some people here have lost sight of whats important. The most important thing with COPA For Kids - (I can't believe I have to actual write this!) is THE KIDS! Two main things are important about these aforementioned kids - FIRST - their safety/security and SECOND - that they get to experience the "Joy of Flight". Both of these things are equally important - you can't have one without the other.

Some of you people are acting like spending $25 and a couple of hrs of your time to get a background check is on par with donating a kidney. I personally take getting kids involved with flying and taking kids flying very seriously. It is our future - we were all a kid or a young adult or even an adult when we got infected with "aviation" - someone took time out of their day, spent some gas money, put a bit of wear and tear on their plane - for you to get into flying. I was taken flying in a 180 on floats when I was 14 years old - that one ride changed my life profoundly - I have now been 30 plus years working in aviation - it is my whole life!!

I have spent years and quite literally thousands of dollars to get every kid I come in contact with interested in flying - I currently have 6 young people I'm mentoring to get their licence - one 19 yr old passed his Private Flight test today - 5 of them own airplanes that I gave up thousands of dollars to get them into cheap. It is absolutely shameful to think that the guy with that 180 on floats that took me for a ride or anyone of the people that got any one of you into flying would have not done so over $25 - think very carefully about how absurd that really is!! Please look at the big picture here!!
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