COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

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jakeandelwood
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by jakeandelwood » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:26 pm

groncher wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:25 pm
Maybe I'm wrong, but some of you come off as more put out by the fact that you have to spend a few bucks or a couple hours of your time to get the checks done, than you are for other reasons.(others of you have good arguments).
It's great that you have an aircraft and can take a kid up once in a while. But to make it sound like the time it takes to get the check done is just too much, or the 50 bucks is too much, is pretty insulting to all the other volunteers that spend 100's of hours and some times 100's of dollars to get the credentials to coach your kids hockey team every year (or whatever).
It's not just about that, I personally spend a huge amount of my time working overtime to be able to have the luxury of owning my own plane, so if a volunteer is willing to let your kid enjoy that for free you have to realize that it's not just the time of the flight, it's all the effort the owner has done to keep that aircraft airworthy, whether the owners does the maintenance or they work for a paycheque and pay someone else to do it. I get very little time off work and if I'm going to donate a day to fly a kid around for free that's all I'm going to have time to do. I'm not going to spend time bothering getting a police check and have to take time off work to do so because their office only does them on weekdays. I just wouldn't have the time to do any more than the flight, just my reality.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:03 am

DougRonan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:48 pm
I personally take getting kids involved with flying and taking kids flying very seriously. It is our future - we were all a kid or a young adult or even an adult when we got infected with "aviation" - someone took time out of their day, spent some gas money, put a bit of wear and tear on their plane - for you to get into flying.
I think most of us in this topic do. That is why we are concerned that this needless red tape is going to scare some people off. Even if it is just one pilot that can't fly, that is one less kid that gets to fly for free. One kid that could miss his future in aviation.

And for what. For a piece of paper?

Does the police check improve the experience of the kid? No it doesn't.

DougRonan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:48 pm
It is absolutely shameful to think that the guy with that 180 on floats that took me for a ride or anyone of the people that got any one of you into flying would have not done so over $25 - think very carefully about how absurd that really is!! Please look at the big picture here!!
He could have. He could have forgotten about the requirement, not have applied in time, not have known you can't just pick it up the same day.

The big picture is that useless paperwork and fear mongering has to come to a stop. If a rule doesn't have any positive effect, it shouldn't be imposed/enforced just to cover someone's butt or because it is fashionable to do so.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by charrois » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:42 am

DougRonan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:48 pm
I am actually one of the current Board Members of COPA that some of you here speak favorably of and some not so much.
Thanks for weighing in! For the most part, I'm quite happy with the representation that COPA offers and I know that the board members do everything they can to promote and protect aviation. However, in this case, as I've mentioned in a previous post, I think the decision isn't in the best interests of the program.
DougRonan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:48 pm
The most important thing with COPA For Kids - (I can't believe I have to actual write this!) is THE KIDS!
I agree completely. And this is precisely why I think this is the wrong decision. I don't believe the decision was made primarily in the interest of the kids (especially considering there has never been a single incident in the history of the program), but instead it has to do with perceived liability to COPA and the program. In the big picture, this will result in reduced availability for pilots, which will result in less kids getting the experience. Not to say an issue can never arise in the future, but we can't possibly predict and insulate ourselves from every possibility. In the history of my involvement in the program, I've never once been asked by a parent asking if a police check has been done on the pilots. They apparently aren't concerned of this being a particular risk factor - why do we trust ourselves less than they trust us?
DougRonan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:48 pm
I have spent years and quite literally thousands of dollars to get every kid I come in contact with interested in flying
That's great - and an attitude shared by the vast majority of the pilots who do volunteer for COPA for Kids, so I think everyone involved is on the same page. We all want to do everything we can to expose as many kids as possible to aviation. Which is why I'll strongly support every effort to expand the program, and oppose changes which will have the effect of reducing it.
DougRonan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:48 pm
It is absolutely shameful to think that the guy with that 180 on floats that took me for a ride or anyone of the people that got any one of you into flying would have not done so over $25 - think very carefully about how absurd that really is!!
OK - so let's use that example. When the guy with the 180 offered to take you for a ride, was your (or your parents') first reaction to say "not unless you have a police check"? I'm sure he offered out of his own generosity, as does every COPA for Kids pilot I've ever met. The $25 is immaterial, but if you were to have questioned his integrity, he would have gone on his merry way without you and you would have never had that life changing experience.

Most of the pilots I've talked to have no issue over the $25 or whatever it costs. It's a drop in the bucket compared to what they are already contributing. For those who have an issue with the new requirement for a police check, its usually either:

a) "Looking a gift horse in the mouth", after having already offered to volunteer their time, aircraft, and expenses. Most pilots take their reputation very seriously, and it can be insulting to some when this reputation is questioned.
b) In honesty, many (most) people are procrastinators. Even if a pilot has every intention of getting a police check done, many will leave it too late to be involved in their local event. And some will figure that spending a couple of hours to get a police check done for a volunteer role they're only going to spend a couple of hours at anyway just isn't worth the trouble.

I'm not saying either of those scenarios are completely justified, but in reality both will negatively impact the involvement of local pilots. It's nice to think this decision is in the best interest of the kids, but when the dust settles, it's not.

Personally as a COPA for Kids pilot, I'll jump through the hoop of getting the check done if it's required - continuing to give the kids the experience of flight is far more important to me than anything else.

But I'm also a COPA for Kids organizer. That's a whole different story. Many of the pilots I've discussed this new requirement with are opposed to it. Some will likely refuse on principle due to (a). And realistically, many of the rest will fall into item (b) - a large portion of my pilots are "last minute" commitment types. Realistically, I'm planning to have half the pilots I normally do at the next event I hold. This will have a very detrimental impact on the number of kids we can take. We have no problem at all attracting kids - our events have averaged around 130 kids each (not bad for a rural part of the country with a population in the surrounding area of only around 10,000). We do have a problem though getting enough pilots to meet the interest, and how will turning kids away help the program? This will only make things that much harder.

Though I know the decision was made with pure intentions, I fear it was not properly thought out, as I can't see it being anything other than a detriment to the program.

Dan
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by DougRonan » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:31 am

Just a quick note - unfortunately this not a "COPA" driven issue - this is an industry/society issue. As a bunch of people have stated here, this is pretty standard practice for anybody dealing with kids. I'm sure COPA is not happy that they have to impose this extra burden on our CFK volunteers but it is not their doing - it is the climate we live in in 2018. So with that said unfortunately we may lose some volunteer pilots with this new rule but I would hope that the majority of you will preserver and continue to support the program. Again - COPA really appreciates the volunteers that take up their time and the use of their airplanes for the kids of this country to get an initial taste of flight and I hope that we can get past this and continue this great program - it is vitally important to the future of aviation!! Most of us here are a product of someone taking us for that initial airplane ride!
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by photofly » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:36 am

No, Doug, with great respect, that won’t wash. It’s only the climate we live in because everyone is ready to make it the climate we live in. COPA is not compelled either by law or force of nature to do this. it may be a good decision, a wise decision, the right decision, but it’s a decision, a choice, and someone has to own it.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:41 am

DougRonan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:48 pm
...The most important thing with COPA For Kids - (I can't believe I have to actual write this!) is THE KIDS! Two main things are important about these aforementioned kids - FIRST - their safety/security...
Doug, I don't think anyone here would argue with a straight face that the safety of kids isn't first and foremost at every CFK event. Having participated in a dozen of them myself, I know we brief and re-brief safety procedures and plans for getting kids to and from and into and out of aircraft safely.

That said: A safety check on a pilot who is only with the kid for 20 minutes, belted in, to a noisy aircraft, and during which time half of it will be spent focused on dealing with ATC and getting in and out of the circuit, is ridiculous. Especially when you consider that the ground crew isn't required to get the same check... When they will spend hours on the ground with the kids during a CFK event, marshalling them around buildings and aircraft and into and out of rooms for ground school and helping them find bathrooms.

If the policy were implemented across the board for anyone participating in a CFK event, it would be more effective, and possibly more palatable.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by rookiepilot » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:05 am

DougRonan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:48 pm

- some people here have lost sight of whats important. The most important thing with COPA For Kids - (I can't believe I have to actual write this!) is THE KIDS! Two main things are important about these aforementioned kids - FIRST - their safety/security and SECOND - that they get to experience the "Joy of Flight".

I have spent years and quite literally thousands of dollars to get every kid I come in contact with interested in flying - I currently have 6 young people I'm mentoring to get their licence - one 19 yr old passed his Private Flight test today - 5 of them own airplanes that I gave up thousands of dollars to get them into cheap. It is absolutely shameful to think that the guy with that 180 on floats that took me for a ride or anyone of the people that got any one of you into flying would have not done so over $25 - think very carefully about how absurd that really is!! Please look at the big picture here!!
In a word, when you volunteer, and I have invested years and years doing so, time away from my family, and a lot of my own dollars too -- It's not about you, frankly. That seems to be hard to understand.

When I volunteer, It's "how can I serve you". I'm happy to do so. Volunteering has given me great joy. I have more opportunities lined up than I can count.

You who are so bitter about it, I feel sorry for you. I really do.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by MrWings » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:13 am

I find the stance by a COPA director on this issue ironic.

On 406 ELTs, COPA believes ELTs fail more than they function. And they believe that for many owners ELTs are cost prohibitive. I can't believe you are fighting this COPA! It's about safety! You act like buying an ELT is like giving a kidney.

COPA fights the mandatory implementation of 406 ELTs, despite the support of the Search and Rescue community and it being a legal requirement, because they claim there is no improvement to safety.

Then they wonder why a vulnerable sector check is met with opposition. Their response is "just do it".

Ironic AND insulting.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by PilotDAR » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:25 am

There sure seems to be a lot of passion about the possible cost of having the check done! For those who are commenting on $25 for the police check, have you actually inquired about the cost? If it's the OPP, there is no charge for a police check for volunteer actives (I filled out the form ten days ago). If the $25 means that much to you anyway, breath a sigh of relief - no $25 (for Ontario, at least).

'Worried about the inconvenience to you of having the police check done? What about the inconvenience of attempting to persuade "the authorities" after an accusation is made against you, or something dredged up from your past! Guilty or not, there has been ample evidence in recent times how even the most innocent person can be subject to a lot of inquiry. Not that a police check can entirely prevent that, but it sure looks a lot better to have had it done!

It's about professionalism pilots. You can bimble around by yourself, staying out of everyone else's way, and below the radar, and probably no one cares what you do. If you choose to present yourself as a participant at an event, where pilot professionalism is being considered, get your paperwork right! The event can request whatever they feel is necessary to demonstrate that standards were met. It's your job to provide your documents to that effect! I'll never forget an occasion when I was an organizer of a fly in, and responsible to TC for the compliance of the event. We had seaplane games, and pilots had to register to participate (of course, participation was voluntary, no one was walking around asking you to show your papers). A pilot presents himself to me for registration for the seaplane games. He did not have a pilot's license, nor insurance, and the C of A for his airplane did not seem to be supported by up to date log entries (he had flown it to the event that day). He seemed disappointed when I informed him that I could not allow him to participate, for lack of paperwork. He backtalked me. I said to him: "You do realize that that fellow just over there (while I pointed out the TC Inspector) is a TC Inspector overseeing the event, who could ask to see anyone's paperwork....". The applicant quietly withdrew.

Things aren't the way they were when at 13, I was taken for my first flight, similar to Doug's experience. I was a volunteer firefighter for more than 15 years when the requirement was applied to us. It did not matter that I'd known the Chief for nearly twenty years, everyone had to have the check done, for the sake of the Fire Department, and one's own piece of mind. The world has done it to itself, so here we are, just live with the new reality, it's less work than fighting it!
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by MrWings » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:39 am

PilotDAR wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:25 am
I was a volunteer firefighter for more than 15 years when the requirement was applied to us. It did not matter that I'd known the Chief for nearly twenty years, everyone had to have the check done, for the sake of the Fire Department, and one's own piece of mind. The world has done it to itself, so here we are, just live with the new reality, it's less work than fighting it!
There are times when a vulnerable sector check makes sense. There are times when it doesn't.

Some choose to blindly jump through any unnecessary hoops put in front of them. Some choose to fight against meaningless rules and regulations.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:40 am

PilotDAR wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:25 am
'Worried about the inconvenience to you of having the police check done? What about the inconvenience of attempting to persuade "the authorities" after an accusation is made against you, or something dredged up from your past! Guilty or not, there has been ample evidence in recent times how even the most innocent person can be subject to a lot of inquiry. Not that a police check can entirely prevent that, but it sure looks a lot better to have had it done!
What situation could realistically come up where having a police check would help you? If kid accused you for some reason, you could still always get the check done and prove that you've never been caught doing something like that before in your life.

In your example, you actively checked if required paperwork was in order. Nobody is disputing that. No pilot would object to showing his pilot license (I assume). This discussion is about a COPA imposed rule that only makes the life of their volunteers harder and serves no practical purpose.
PilotDAR wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:25 am
The world has done it to itself, so here we are, just live with the new reality, it's less work than fighting it!
Well, undo it. This is a very example in which you can undo it. It is just a COPA rule. From Doug's message I get the impression that it wasn't even requested by the parents or the insurance companies. It was just a rule that copa came up with to "go with the times", because of the "climate". That's just not good enough a reason.

One more thing:
PilotDAR wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:25 am
The event can request whatever they feel is necessary to demonstrate that standards were met.
That is simply not true. We have privacy rules and laws that determine what you can ask for. I admit this most likely not an issue for the copa kids flights, but an organisation where you won't work with kids or vulnerable people for example, is not allowed to require a vulnerable records check.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by DougRonan » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:40 am

COPA President Bernard Gervais summed it up in the following article:

https://copanational.org/en/2018/11/16/ ... mber-2018/
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by goldeneagle » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:53 am

rookiepilot wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:05 am
When I volunteer, It's "how can I serve you". I'm happy to do so. Volunteering has given me great joy. I have more opportunities lined up than I can count.

You who are so bitter about it, I feel sorry for you. I really do.
Folks, mark this day clearly on the calendar, it's a monumental occasion.

rookie and goldeneagle agree on something. Whoda thunk that was even possible.....
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by charrois » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:23 pm

DougRonan wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:40 am
COPA President Bernard Gervais summed it up in the following article:

https://copanational.org/en/2018/11/16/ ... mber-2018/
I'm glad they publicly clarified the reasoning behind their decision. The takeaway is that though they didn't necessarily want to do it, their insurance company pretty much insisted.

My biggest concern as an organizer has been in losing volunteer pilots due to more bureaucracy and red tape. The challenge will be in trying to appeal to pilots' "big picture" view that giving kids the experience vs. refusing to have the check done on principle is ultimately what's important here. Deflecting criticism of the decision from COPA to the insurance companies will help - everyone loves to hate insurance companies. Defending the decision on the basis of "just because we decided to" is a lot more difficult, particularly when a large number of pilots see it as an ineffective and inappropriate measure. I'm one of that number, but it's helpful to know where criticism of the decision should be directed.

There is no question it will be more difficult to get sufficient pilots to run our event without turning away kids. So we're going to have to find ways to be more persuasive.

But this leads to the next question of which I've always been unsure. If the decision is essentially insurance-industry driven, exactly what role does the insurance cover for these events? I know that the pilots have to carry their own liability insurance to fly. What is the COPA insurance liable for, and why do we need it? I'm not being facetious - I've just never really understood this. If it's to cover issues that may arise while in the air, wouldn't the pilot's liability insurance be called on if something happened? If it's for issues that may arise on the ground, why are pilots being singled out for the new requirement and not everyone else involved (perhaps because on the ground everything is done in a very public forum, with the parents usually not far)? Not that I want to upset the apple cart and make things even harder to find ground crew as well, but I just want to understand things as well as I can.

Another question - with another organization I'm involved in (Youth Robotics), a similar check was required, but in that case I merely had to give permission for them to conduct the check on my behalf. From what I understand of Young Eagles (though I'm just a volunteer there, not an organizer, so I'll be the first to admit I don't know for certain), they may have a similar procedure in place. Would such a thing be possible as an alternative? I can guarantee that far more pilots would consent to allowing COPA to do a check on their behalf than get around to doing it themselves.

Dan
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by MrWings » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:34 pm

charrois wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:23 pm
If the decision is essentially insurance-industry driven, exactly what role does the insurance cover for these events?
Great question. It is my assumption that they'd covered incidents related to operating the aircraft. I feel like they'd never even consider paying a settlement for an abuse claim.

So the VSC is good for 3 years. You could theoretically have an offender flying kids 2 years and 364 days after an offence. Sounds very effective.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by photofly » Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:04 am

Charities will have a general insurance policy against claims of negilgence from volunteers and members of the public.

Here’s a company that specializes in providing it, and you can get a good idea of the risks covered from their site:
https://www.ecclesiastical.ca/insurance ... t-protect/

In addition Directors carry a lot of personal liability in their operation of a charity, especially if they can be shown to have been negligent in in their decision making in some way. One part of the test can be industry standards, and a consideration of what other similar charities considered reasonable.

Every charity will provide Directors’ and officers’ insurance, otherwise nobody will take on the risk of serving on a charity board.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:10 am

DougRonan wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:40 am
COPA President Bernard Gervais summed it up in the following article:

https://copanational.org/en/2018/11/16/ ... mber-2018/
I understand where the requirement is coming from now, the insurance companies want it and will kill CFK without it. Okay, I get that. But I still can't fathom why only the pilots are required to get it. The ground crew at a CFK event is in no less a "position of authority" over the children and spends more time with the kids than the pilots do.

I would understand requiring the entire CFK team (pilots and crew) to get the VS check. I don't understand requiring the *least* likely person to cause a problem to get a VS check, while the *most* likely person doesn't have to get one.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by ahramin » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:25 am

Because the insurance company wants it for the pilots and not for the ground staff.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:39 am

ahramin wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:25 am
Because the insurance company wants it for the pilots and not for the ground staff.
I agree, it doesn't make any sense. Maybe someone needs to point out to the insurance company that the pilots spend the least amount of time with the kids and have the least free hands and attention span available to do something with.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:59 am

That still doesn't explain what the advantage is for the pilot for flying under the copa for kids label if he takes up kids outside of that event as mentioned in the article:
This becomes particularly more relevant as we expand the program to allow pilots to conduct sanctioned, insurance-covered flights outside of an organized COPA for Kids event day like with neighbours, friends, work colleagues or anyone, whether youth or adults.
What kind of insurance would the pilot get extra if he already has his own liability insurance? And would he need a police check to fly his 50 year old neighbor around?
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by DougRonan » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:13 pm

So let me get this straight - a certain number of you have been complaining that COPA has implemented this policy of a back ground check for the pilots - now after 95 posts I believe its been explained very well why this was done and it was not done by COPA's choice and not taken lightly - and now the same certain number of you are complaining now that we don't make it more restrictive and add back ground check for the ground crew as well - so oddly enough there is a common denominator with the same certain number of you posting on this topic - complaining!
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by shamrock104 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:41 pm

Lets make it fair across the board, have the kids come in with clean conduct sheets in hand too, fair then for everyone.
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by flyzam » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:24 pm

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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by photofly » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:29 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:59 am
That still doesn't explain what the advantage is for the pilot for flying under the copa for kids label if he takes up kids outside of that event as mentioned in the article:
This becomes particularly more relevant as we expand the program to allow pilots to conduct sanctioned, insurance-covered flights outside of an organized COPA for Kids event day like with neighbours, friends, work colleagues or anyone, whether youth or adults.
What kind of insurance would the pilot get extra if he already has his own liability insurance? And would he need a police check to fly his 50 year old neighbor around?
There seems to be some confusion. The insurance benefits COPA, not the pilot or the passenger. if a child is assaulted by a pilot the child (or more likely the parents) could bring a suit against COPA for negligence for placing the child in a position to be assaulted by the pilot. COPA (or actually, COPA's insurer) wants to be able to defend against that claim by saying, look, we took all reason care to keep your child safe, including requiring the pilot to provide a vulnerable sector check. If he or she assaulted the child, it's not our fault.

It's not clear that, with or without a police check, that COPA would be liable in negligence. But insurance companies are all about risk, and to them, the risk of a lawsuit, and the possible payout awarded against COPA (and therefore against them) in the event that a lawsuit is successful, are both reduced if the pilot has provided a check. Even if the lawsuit is purely speculative, it's still going to cost a six figure sum to mount a defence. The insurer wants to head that off at the pass.

Just to reiterate, it doesn't make the pilot any more or less likely to assault a child. It's just COPA's way of being better able to say, in the event a complaint is made, that it's not the charity's fault.

Please also note that the insurer doesn't care how difficult it is to get pilots to volunteer; in fact the insurer would prefer it if no pilots ever volunteered, and the events never happened. Their risk would be much lower that way. Which is how they like it.

This has nothing to do with a pilot's compulsory liability insurance, which would not cover COPA (a third party) against their own negligence in facilitating a criminal act by the pilot against a passenger. That insurance doesn't even cover a pilot for deliberate criminal acts - how could it?



There's another important point here. Insurance companies don't turn around and suddenly demand police checks. Insurance companies want to see a well thought out child protection policy, and they want to see that child protection policy followed. Because if you don't have a policy, or if you have a policy and you don't follow it, you're implicitly in the wrong when a problem occurs. I know this because I had to negotiate with an insurance broker for an umbrella insurance policy for a charity. Including deciding when a police check was appropriate, and for whom.

So I should like to see COPA publicize their new child protection policy - and it should be public - rather than just cherry pick a single new requirement. The policy should explain how children are to be kept safe at all stages of an event including on the ground and in the air.
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DougRonan
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Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by DougRonan » Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:14 pm

I really think this conversation has run its course and is not being productive anymore but i do need to respond to this previous post because it is 150 % false!!

Photofly wrote"

"Please also note that the insurer doesn't care how difficult it is to get pilots to volunteer; in fact the insurer would prefer it if no pilots ever volunteered, and the events never happened. Their risk would be much lower that way. Which is how they like it."

This is the most asinine and baseless statement I have ever heard - especially in this case - both the Broker - Magnus and the Underwritter - AIG are big supporters in many ways of the COPA For Kids program so I (and probably a lot of other sane people) are getting really sick of the negativity towards COPA and more importantly the COPA For Kids program!! Some of you people act like this is some sort of service that COPA is providing to you at a charge and your not getting what your paying for. It is a totally volunteer program 100% to benefit Canadian Aviation and get kids into flying - it is absolutely ridiculous to me that some of you people keep running this program down when its only purpose is to build aviation up in this country. COPA, its insurance broker, and insurance underwriter have worked very hard to make this program as good as it is!! So all you "Debbie Downers' need to find something else to bitch about and just forget this program exists and let the people that are actually interested in making the aviation world better one kid at a time!!

People have to understand - COPA is different now - we are all trying to row in the same direction and be good for aviation - this kind of nattering negativity is not good for anything!!
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