The government is concerned...

[Zaibatsu]

Careful there.

Lots of jobs only exist because there are people willing to work for low wages to get them. If they don’t get pilots, those businesses close. Then there aren’t any pilots to go on to larger companies. The pilots there start getting coerced into overtime, flights get cancelled, and the company starts entering financial dire straits.

I’m not talking theoretically. It’s happening more or less right now. As much as you hate ‘scabs’ you probably were one at some point in your life and others who were are the reason you have a job at all.

Interesting times.

[complexintentions]

It's not rocket science...I don't think we need an expensive study to find the problem. I'd be happy to fly for a living if I could afford to! I could have my CPL in a few months if I wanted.

So could my Gran. Who cares what you think. You don't have perspective. Let the commercial pilots speak their minds.

I love this forum.

Jobs arent the problem. Pay is. And whats more of a problem is the scabs that take those low paying jobs.

Too many people like JasonE would feel "privileged" to work for Buffalo and throw bags for a year just so they can fly a plane. What a deal that is. Loser kids need to stop accepting bullshit paying jobs with bullshit hours and bullshit training bonds and bullshit bullshit just so they can look cool on Instagram. Christ.

But there AREN'T enough "loser kids accepting bullshit paying jobs" so how are they the problem? It is COMPLETELY up to any individual to decide to accept a job or not, not for you or anyone to tell them to remain unemployed solely to protect your wages. Do agree about the Instagram posers, but those ones usually weed themselves out when the going turns out to be tougher than taking a few selfies.

^ F@#K all that Sh!t! Indusrty created the looming headache by paying poorly in the first place, and now they want the taxpayers to bail them out, by increasing the supply of pilots, so that they can continue to pay poorly??!! FTS! How about salaries going up to attract more people? You know, just like how a capitalist economy is supposed to work!

My cynical side notes that the picture accompanying the article is of one of Flair's 737s; co-incidental, I'm sure, that Flair is based in Kelowna, and it is the (Conservative) MP for Kelowna who is bleating about bailouts.

Nailed it 100%. The last thing that will solve a supply/demand problem is supply management, comrades!

Your thoughts make sense except other parts of the government are screaming that airfare in Canada is already too expensive. You are dreaming if you think aviation is a high profit industry. The margins for sked operations are terrible.
TG

The problem is now people's sense of entitlement to air travel. Flying is far, FAR cheaper now than it ever has been in history. Cherrypicking some routes with low demand as examples of high airfare is not on - there is no inherent "right" to cheap flights to Armpit Saskatchewan 4x daily. I just laugh at people who call traveling by air "expensive". In inflation-adjusted costs it's dirt cheap compared to 20, 30 years ago.

[bobcaygeon]

I don't disagree but politicians are trying to win votes and putting pressure on the front lines.

TG

[confusedalot]

Read through the posts and the common theme is shit pay.
I agree, pay is not where it should be.
But I am curious though. Those who posit that going to aviation salaries, exactly what do you do for a living.
Timing is everything and my timing by birth put me into the bad old days of multiple bankruptcies and recessions.
So I ended up doing semi skilled non aviation jobs that where above minimum wage but nowhere near great. Salaries where actually lower than flying a plane, and although they were 5 day a week jobs, the shift element remained, so there was no benefit in being outside of aviation.
One of the jobs were for a flight simulator manufacturer. Starting salary was actually slightly more than a starting engineer.
So I am genuinely curious where these non aviation better jobs actually are.
Sure, if you are a qualified electrician or plumber, or a nurse, or a software engineer, money is better. You have skills so your income is higher. If you have no skills, well, minimum wage is all you get. If you are a doctor or lawyer, you should not even think of flying as a career.
The guys I know, and that would be most of them, are living very very well. 300K. But that figure does not come right away. So you will have to live on 200K, 150K, 100K, and 50K for a few years.
Overall, salaries in Canada no matter what you do for a living, are pitifully lower than the US. Good buddy of mine who won the green card lottery has worked for American for ages. He made 390K last year. Flying a small 737.
Sure don't advocate slinging bags to chase a dream, but at the end of the day, life outside of aviation is not quite as good for the average Canadian as some would advocate.

[bearitus]

Read through the posts and the common theme is shit pay.
I agree, pay is not where it should be.
But I am curious though. Those who posit that going to aviation salaries, exactly what do you do for a living.
Timing is everything and my timing by birth put me into the bad old days of multiple bankruptcies and recessions.
So I ended up doing semi skilled non aviation jobs that where above minimum wage but nowhere near great. Salaries where actually lower than flying a plane, and although they were 5 day a week jobs, the shift element remained, so there was no benefit in being outside of aviation.
One of the jobs were for a flight simulator manufacturer. Starting salary was actually slightly more than a starting engineer.
So I am genuinely curious where these non aviation better jobs actually are.
Sure, if you are a qualified electrician or plumber, or a nurse, or a software engineer, money is better. You have skills so your income is higher. If you have no skills, well, minimum wage is all you get. If you are a doctor or lawyer, you should not even think of flying as a career.
The guys I know, and that would be most of them, are living very very well. 300K. But that figure does not come right away. So you will have to live on 200K, 150K, 100K, and 50K for a few years.
Overall, salaries in Canada no matter what you do for a living, are pitifully lower than the US. Good buddy of mine who won the green card lottery has worked for American for ages. He made 390K last year. Flying a small 737.
Sure don't advocate slinging bags to chase a dream, but at the end of the day, life outside of aviation is not quite as good for the average Canadian as some would advocate.

I partially agree with this post. Aviation has a huge upside especially if you stick it out to get to the high pay. I think what most pilots on here are unhappy about is how long it takes to get to a decent wage taking into account the amount of money and training required to get an entry level job. There is no reason why a regional airline FO with an ATPL should be making less than a full time Uber driver in Toronto. Just as a reference, my first job out of university as a software engineer with no experience paid over double what I am making after 4 years of full time flying.

[goingnowherefast]

If I were to do it again, I'd be a carpenter or electrician. Quickly to low 6 figures and stay there for my career. Not worth 15 grand a year, instructor or seasonal floats to eventually, maybe, possibly get to AC making medium money for a long time, then finally lots of money just to retire. Lifetime earnings aren't there, especially for the family cost. Nobdoy wants to suffer from AIDS...Aviation Induced Divorcd Syndrome. That'll take a lot out of the retirement fund.

[jakeandelwood]

^ F@#K all that Sh!t! Indusrty created the looming headache by paying poorly in the first place, and now they want the taxpayers to bail them out, by increasing the supply of pilots, so that they can continue to pay poorly??!! FTS! How about salaries going up to attract more people? You know, just like how a capitalist economy is supposed to work!

My cynical side notes that the picture accompanying the article is of one of Flair's 737s; co-incidental, I'm sure, that Flair is based in Kelowna, and it is the (Conservative) MP for Kelowna who is bleating about bailouts.

Your thoughts make sense except other parts of the government are screaming that airfare in Canada is already too expensive. You are dreaming if you think aviation is a high profit industry. The margins for sked operations are terrible.

TG

Airfare is basically too cheap. I'll bet that a airline ticket to fly across this country was more in the '50s than it is now even after inflation is taken into account, Christ a bus ticket would cost more.

[JasonE]

Airfare is basically too cheap. I'll bet that a airline ticket to fly across this country was more in the '50s than it is now even after inflation is taken into account, Christ a bus ticket would cost more.

This. I found an article where it said a 1950's ticket from Chicago to Phoenix was $138 round trip. Using the bank of Canada index from 1955 to today, it would be $1303! (USD) We can fly roundtrip to Europe for that and sometimes less these days.

[BMLtech]

When I left my aviation career after 25 years as an AME, I was pretty much at the top of the pay scale at a major airline. Then one of my sons buddies got his journeyman electrician ticket, and made more per hour on his first day on the job then I did after 25 years, and no midnight shifts. Go figure.

[Lightchop]

If I were to do it again, I'd be a carpenter or electrician. Quickly to low 6 figures and stay there for my career. Not worth 15 grand a year, instructor or seasonal floats to eventually, maybe, possibly get to AC making medium money for a long time, then finally lots of money just to retire. Lifetime earnings aren't there, especially for the family cost. Nobdoy wants to suffer from AIDS...Aviation Induced Divorcd Syndrome. That'll take a lot out of the retirement fund.

If all you care for is low six figures, a regional is just fine then. And as people leave to go to AC or something you climb the list. If I stick around at Jazz within the next 5 years I'll be in a pretty great spot.

[confusedalot]

Read through the posts and the common theme is shit pay.
I agree, pay is not where it should be.
But I am curious though. Those who posit that going to aviation salaries, exactly what do you do for a living.
Timing is everything and my timing by birth put me into the bad old days of multiple bankruptcies and recessions.
So I ended up doing semi skilled non aviation jobs that where above minimum wage but nowhere near great. Salaries where actually lower than flying a plane, and although they were 5 day a week jobs, the shift element remained, so there was no benefit in being outside of aviation.
One of the jobs were for a flight simulator manufacturer. Starting salary was actually slightly more than a starting engineer.
So I am genuinely curious where these non aviation better jobs actually are.
Sure, if you are a qualified electrician or plumber, or a nurse, or a software engineer, money is better. You have skills so your income is higher. If you have no skills, well, minimum wage is all you get. If you are a doctor or lawyer, you should not even think of flying as a career.
The guys I know, and that would be most of them, are living very very well. 300K. But that figure does not come right away. So you will have to live on 200K, 150K, 100K, and 50K for a few years.
Overall, salaries in Canada no matter what you do for a living, are pitifully lower than the US. Good buddy of mine who won the green card lottery has worked for American for ages. He made 390K last year. Flying a small 737.
Sure don't advocate slinging bags to chase a dream, but at the end of the day, life outside of aviation is not quite as good for the average Canadian as some would advocate.

I partially agree with this post. Aviation has a huge upside especially if you stick it out to get to the high pay. I think what most pilots on here are unhappy about is how long it takes to get to a decent wage taking into account the amount of money and training required to get an entry level job. There is no reason why a regional airline FO with an ATPL should be making less than a full time Uber driver in Toronto. Just as a reference, my first job out of university as a software engineer with no experience paid over double what I am making after 4 years of full time flying.

Good information.

However.............

Now, I was an experienced pilot, and was given a little too much responsibility that I did not want at CAE in 2001, after 9/11, and at TRU simulation, in 2016 as a retirement job. (Appears that a pilot will wave a magic wand and fix everything just like god almighty in these places LOL!!!!)
But anyway, drifting off topic.....
The young out of school software engineers were paid 50K in 2001, and about 60K in 2016.
I was paid more than them, but not by much.
So, starting salaries are naturally going to be higher for someone who did 4 years of university, but as you know, potential income over the long term is, sadly, lower than a pilot who sticks it out over a few years.
Been through a hell of a lot of tribulations in this business, but looking back, I possibly would not have been any better off after 36 years of flying.
Unless of course, I managed to get myself into google...... .
My silly past career is in no way a success, because it certainly is not, I have however seen the world, flown big fancy airplanes and at the very least has given me a total net worth that is still sadly above the Canadian average.
Not the best, but still better than many.
For those who are considering the business; as Bill Gates said before a bunch of university graduates, life is not fair, and anyone who says luck played no factor in their success is a liar.
Same for airplanes; it can go either way.

[jakeandelwood]

Airfare is basically too cheap. I'll bet that a airline ticket to fly across this country was more in the '50s than it is now even after inflation is taken into account, Christ a bus ticket would cost more.

This. I found an article where it said a 1950's ticket from Chicago to Phoenix was $138 round trip. Using the bank of Canada index from 1955 to today, it would be $1303! (USD) We can fly roundtrip to Europe for that and sometimes less these days.

Bus ticket from Chicago to Phoenix on the Greyhound right now for $380 us. I'll bet you can find a flight from for cheaper

[confusedalot]

These posts are fantastic. Every single service and manufacturer the world over increase their fees, and consequently their employee salaries.
Air travel.....noooooo.................Seems like the aviation gurus find that the race to the bottom is the way to go, all the while collecting multimillion dollar salaries.
And the government is worried
Nope, public servants and top level air operator leaders are cut from the same cloth. As long as their asses are secure, could not give a shit about anybody or anything.

[shimmydampner]

If I were to do it again, I'd be a carpenter or electrician. Quickly to low 6 figures and stay there for my career. Not worth 15 grand a year, instructor or seasonal floats to eventually, maybe, possibly get to AC making medium money for a long time, then finally lots of money just to retire. Lifetime earnings aren't there

You might want to check your math. A 50 year career as an electrician making $100k/year will gross you $5 million. Using the slightly out of date pay scale info I have, some quick math shows a 40 year stint at AC as an FO for 10 years, lowest paying narrow body captain for 20 years, and then wide body captain for the last 10 will earn you over $7 million. And I'd be willing to wager you could do much better than that if you were so inclined.
If I were to do it again, I would have tried to get my foot in that door five years ago at the first signs of things heating up. Now I just kick myself when I hear of my buddies who tried to convince me to go, now making $200k+. You're crazy if you think that in the grand scheme of things that's a "medium" living. The average salary in this country is $50k after all.

[C-GGGQ]

Except you only get 40 years at AC if you happen to get through training, ramp, 703, regional by age 20. 25 at the oldest.

[shimmydampner]

Sure. I know plenty that have done exactly that. You can have your CPL at 18. That's 7 years to get to AC. That's heaps of time, if you're motivated and not a loser.

[Grey_Wolf]

There is no reason why a regional airline FO with an ATPL should be making less than a full time Uber driver in Toronto

Yes there is .... shitty pay by employers !!!

The employers want candidates, but when it's economically not feasible for those students; I don't feel bad when airplanes get parked and flights cancelled.

Supply and Demand, just keep lowering the bar

Rental in Toronto, is now on average $2200/month
https://www.narcity.com/ca/on/toronto/n ... dollar2220

Couple that with training costs of approx $60,000 to $80,000.

Pending on who you ask, a good budget is no more than 30% for housing, those renting that includes utilities. 20% should be spent on debt repayment.

So .... 2200$/month x 12 months = $26,400.

Now ... that 26,400 is 30% of what the person should be pulling in right? That means that the candidate should be pulling in $88,000 in order to make that work.

Cue up the pay rates for regional FO in Toronto nowadays, on average about $40,000; less than half of what is required. by the way annual minimum wage is $29,120.

So tell me again, why any high school kid can be convinced to take up aviation?

[shimmydampner]

Well the thing is, neither your rent payments nor your student loans determine your worth as an employee, regardless of what industry you're in. It's a nonsense argument.

[Grey_Wolf]

The argument rests on Return on Investment.

The employer can determine what they want to pay; no argument there.

The employee must decide if it's worth it, the ROI so to speak.

That said, Employers should not belly ache that there is a shortage when there are no candidates knocking on their doors. If you were to take care of their needs, maybe they would apply and stick around a bit. As an employer, you need to attract people to your organisation, how you do so is your prerogative.

I've never understood aviation with regards to employers not paying for experience.

For example two candidates, apply for the same job at a regional airline. One has significant 703-704 time and has been type rated on a variety of different aircraft. The second is a "cadet style" candidate drafted from an regional airline affiliated aviation college program. When they both start, they are paid the same. Are they truly worth the same?

I would argue no, one has experience, decision making skills that should command/warrant a higher starting wage. The issue lies in how to pay for the variety of experience that each individual brings to the table. It shouldn't be lowering the bar to the most common denominator, in my opinion.

[goingnowherefast]

The 703/704 pilot with significant time generally isn't applying to Jazz. Can't afford to, and can't move into mom's basement either.

I suspect Jazz will find themselves in trouble in the next few years. Hire too many people without the pic time for an ATPL, and they'll run out of upgradeable FOs.

The 703/704/705lite world is starting to get the message and pay is improving. Jazz obviously hasn't, I don't have much hope for Encore.