Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

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ruddersup?
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by ruddersup? » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:45 pm

I am not saying don't wear a life jacket but thinking it will not be a substitute for pilot error. It would be sad if it turns out to be a detriment.
I think that the net amount of deaths will remain the same as without mandatory pfd's but we wont know until stats are compiled over the years to come. However less accidents will have an immediate impact on stats.
I am speaking as a fairly experienced charter operator and the training for single engine seaplanes is left up to the operator. I was happy with this when I was operating but now it's putting some doubt in my mind. The thought of Transport getting involved in this sends a cringe up my spine however. I don't think there is any standard for single engine seaplane operations. It's been a while since I've been active with an OC. but if anyone is up to speed on this let me know.
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by PilotDAR » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:02 pm

Nothing is perfect, all we can do is work toward better. An occupant of an aircraft wearing a lifejacket will never be the cause of an accident. It is true, that a prematurely inflated lifejacket, or one snagging during egress greatly increases risk. I do not accept that a properly worn lifejacket which does not delay egress is a risk. It is a cost, and a benefit, but not a risk. Indeed, even when flying wearing a lifejacket for overland portions of water flying, I feel a little better, as I'm wearing an airbag I could instantly deploy if I anticipated a rough land landing. I'm not an airbag fan, but hey, anything could help!

If, in the mean time, we want fewer accidents, we want much more experienced pilots. Excellent! I'm all for it. Gee, I nearly died helping a pilot become more experienced, so my money [life] was where my mouth is! So newbie pilots fly a lot more non passenger flights to build experience without putting pax at risk. Excellent again! But that flying costs lots of money, particularly if that newbie wants me right seat for advance training. If the newbie pays for that extra training and experience with their magic money, they will want to recover that in much better starting pay. So let's have the float flying industry offer newbie pilots, with extra good pre-employment training and experience, much higher pay, and make flying safer.....

Then you can prove me wrong, and demonstrate how lifejackets were never needed 'cause no one crashed - perfect!
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by BigWillyStyle » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:37 pm

I think it's a good idea. I wore a non-automatic inflatable when I was flying a Norseman out of a remote lodge, and I got no end of Americans drawling "Jeez, I don't think I like it when the Captain is wearing a life preserver". Do that in a Okie accent and you've got it. My response was that it is going to be mandatory eventually, so get used to it. I carried a small emergency kit with 2 separate independent ways to start a fire, knife, seatbelt cutter and first aid kit, strapped to me like a drop-leg holster, because during an upset, there is zero time to grab anything. I practiced grabbing the cutter with my eyes closed a number of times until it was muscle memory. Cannot recommend it enough.

https://www.voodootactical.net/molle-ge ... pouch.html
A few other thoughts...

I've done the upset training with Webster, and it is worth every dollar. It ought to to mandatory and annual IMO. After flying amphibs for 1000 hours, I can honestly say that it is possible, after a long hot rough day, to forget the gear. It can happen. And then you are upside down. So after you do the upset training, sit in your airplane, and practice it a hundred more times. Trust me.

206s, unless the back doors are extensively modified, should not be on floats. Full stop.

Another poster mentioned the 2 minute rescue air bottle. I have one, and I tried it under controlled conditions in a pool, and it is not a good idea when you are upside down. You'd think so, but without plenty of practice, it is more trouble then it's worth when you are upside down. Get out first, get to the surface, get sorted out, and then use the rescue bottle to retrieve trapped passengers if able.

I agree with other posters that better exits and better decision making tends to make all of this seem superfluous and excessive, but in my experience, every little bit helps.

My 2c.
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by DonutHole » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:26 pm

The available tso'd jackets are intended for one time emergency use, not for daily wear.

Reading the rule though it looks like you can have them in a belt attached to the passengers waist. Fanny packs are about to make a comeback
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by ragbagflyer » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:35 am

Appologies if this point has been discussed; I browsed the thread quickly but didn't see anything about what I'm about to ask.

According to the recent gazette;

1 (1) The definition personal flotation device in subsection 101.01(1) of the Canadian Aviation Regulations (see footnote 1) is repealed.

That definitions is

personal flotation device means a personal flotation device that meets the standards set out in the Canadian General Standards Board Standard 65-GP-11, entitled Standard for: Personal Flotation Devices, published in October 1972; (vêtement de flottaison individuel)


So the way I read it, it appears up to the operator to select an approriate constant wear life preserver, which is surprisingly refreshing. That means we can buy somewhat economical mustangs or alternate brand of inflatables, vs $350 plus switlicks, .

Interestingly looking at Canadian General Standards Board Standard 65-GP-11 and the superseding 65.11-M88, I can't see any mention of a certification/inspection insterval, which begs the question, did we ever have to replace/send away the life preservers we were already carrying around at their placarded 5-10 year inspection interval or could an air operator perform their own visual inspection and return the existing life presevers to service?

Furthermore, if a company were to adopt the incoming standard ahead of the required adoption date next year, could we do away with the old style entirely?
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by Heliian » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:01 pm

ragbagflyer wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:35 am
Appologies if this point has been discussed; I browsed the thread quickly but didn't see anything about what I'm about to ask.

According to the recent gazette;

1 (1) The definition personal flotation device in subsection 101.01(1) of the Canadian Aviation Regulations (see footnote 1) is repealed.

That definitions is

personal flotation device means a personal flotation device that meets the standards set out in the Canadian General Standards Board Standard 65-GP-11, entitled Standard for: Personal Flotation Devices, published in October 1972; (vêtement de flottaison individuel)


So the way I read it, it appears up to the operator to select an approriate constant wear life preserver, which is surprisingly refreshing. That means we can buy somewhat economical mustangs or alternate brand of inflatables, vs $350 plus switlicks, .

Interestingly looking at Canadian General Standards Board Standard 65-GP-11 and the superseding 65.11-M88, I can't see any mention of a certification/inspection insterval, which begs the question, did we ever have to replace/send away the life preservers we were already carrying around at their placarded 5-10 year inspection interval or could an air operator perform their own visual inspection and return the existing life presevers to service?

Furthermore, if a company were to adopt the incoming standard ahead of the required adoption date next year, could we do away with the old style entirely?
It references ch 551 of the airworthiness manual for the standard for pfd's, as long as it meets those standards.

It must be maintained as per the same instructions, life vests still have to be sent away for recertification to the manufacturer or approved facility. Inspections will also need to be done iaw your msa/manufacturer ICA.

No. You'll have to use approved ones and maintain them. You can't just have a bunch of cabelas specials.

I recommend the pouch or fanny pack style.
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by ragbagflyer » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:30 pm

Heliian wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:01 pm

It references ch 551 of the airworthiness manual for the standard for pfd's, as long as it meets those standards.

It must be maintained as per the same instructions, life vests still have to be sent away for recertification to the manufacturer or approved facility. Inspections will also need to be done iaw your msa/manufacturer ICA.

No. You'll have to use approved ones and maintain them. You can't just have a bunch of cabelas specials.

I recommend the pouch or fanny pack style.
I did some further digging and talked to TC.

I'm still not convinced current life jackets need to be sent away for recert because of
602.59 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall operate an aircraft unless the operational and emergency equipment carried on board the aircraft

(a) meets the applicable standards specified in the Airworthiness Manual; and

(b) is functional.

(2) Paragraph (1)(a) does not apply in respect of the following operational and emergency equipment:

(a) survival equipment;

(b) a personal flotation device;
That exception is being removed but until it is I don't think any recert dates would be binding because PFD's fall under the exception to meeting the standards in the airworthiness manual.

When that exception is repealed PFD's must fall under the airworthiness manual, but the airworthiness requirments for PFD's are broader. See the screen shot showing PFD requirements from chapter 551. Where "Life Preservers" and "Individual Floatation Devices" must have CAN-TSO numbers, Personal Floatation devices need only to meet the CAN/CGSB-65.15-M88 or UL1180 Type II standard.
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by vcanews » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:22 am

How often do sea planes end up upside down in the water " not " caused by pilot error?
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by PilotDAR » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:55 am

How often do sea planes end up upside down in the water " not " caused by pilot error?
Sometimes, seaplanes do sink, even while just taxiing or at the dock. If a floatplane sinks, it'll most likely invert too.
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by Heliian » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:30 am

ragbagflyer wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:30 pm
Heliian wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:01 pm

It references ch 551 of the airworthiness manual for the standard for pfd's, as long as it meets those standards.

It must be maintained as per the same instructions, life vests still have to be sent away for recertification to the manufacturer or approved facility. Inspections will also need to be done iaw your msa/manufacturer ICA.

No. You'll have to use approved ones and maintain them. You can't just have a bunch of cabelas specials.

I recommend the pouch or fanny pack style.
I did some further digging and talked to TC.

I'm still not convinced current life jackets need to be sent away for recert because of
602.59 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall operate an aircraft unless the operational and emergency equipment carried on board the aircraft

(a) meets the applicable standards specified in the Airworthiness Manual; and

(b) is functional.

(2) Paragraph (1)(a) does not apply in respect of the following operational and emergency equipment:

(a) survival equipment;

(b) a personal flotation device;
That exception is being removed but until it is I don't think any recert dates would be binding because PFD's fall under the exception to meeting the standards in the airworthiness manual.

When that exception is repealed PFD's must fall under the airworthiness manual, but the airworthiness requirments for PFD's are broader. See the screen shot showing PFD requirements from chapter 551. Where "Life Preservers" and "Individual Floatation Devices" must have CAN-TSO numbers, Personal Floatation devices need only to meet the CAN/CGSB-65.15-M88 or UL1180 Type II standard.
Yes, until the regs come into force, you can still just have whatever. Yes, those are the standards for the pfd's that must be used. These standards are clear in what can be used.
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by Heliian » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:35 am

vcanews wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:22 am
How often do sea planes end up upside down in the water " not " caused by pilot error?
Congrats on making the stupidest comment of the day

:smt038

It's like saying you don't have to wear your seatbelt because you don't plan on getting into an accident. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by CaptainKirk » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:53 pm

This is a good thing. Also when it comes time to actually using one, many people put it on wrong. I made a video below on how to properly inflate a life vest. Feel free to share this with your passengers.


https://youtu.be/U5_5K3xKmoc
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by PilotDAR » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:58 pm

Ah Captain Kirk,

If your video is about how to properly inflate a life vest, would it be worth observing for the audience that you failed to inflate one of the two chambers, because to had the inflation toggle wrapped around the cylinder? Of course, following an inflation, one of the actions is the check to make sure it inflated properly, you seemed to have missed that one. You mention that the life vest "may" have manual inflation tubes... If it was emergency equipment on an airplane, it certainly has them. I would not be showing a failed battery, how does that build confidence for nervous users? "This may not work, so carry two AA cells and tape"?!

You mention a number of times that it's an expired life vest, as though that should justify several things not working as you intended. Really? "Hey guys, what me do this safety briefing to see if it works!" is not really a safety briefing. I cannot support the casual home made, incomplete Youtube video as a replacement for a Transport Canada approved safety briefing, or formalized training. Perhaps you could revisit the place in the world for your video after it has been created and approved to cover the topic properly, and not give the viewer a false sense that they have watched, and now know. If you were training in an airplane, would you train with expired charts and say to the student that you hope that they were still right? This is pretty important stuff, do you want to be responsible for putting incomplete training material out there to those who don't know any better?

I say this as a retired water rescue, ice water rescue trainer, who has taken the underwater egress course, and actually used a life vest to save my life after being crashed into the water in an airplane. Please train within the training curriculum that has been approved, to assure the quality of the training, and maintain a high standard for our industry. I train marine crews and issue certificates to them as a delegate of Transport Canada. I would not be using your video as training material, it would not meet the requirement.
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by CaptainKirk » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:05 pm

Good points, the other cylinder was empty and didn’t inflate. It added to the humour. I did make a disclaimer it’s for entertainment purposes only. Thanks for stopping by! :)
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by missed-approach » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:19 pm

I'm pretty certain Life jackets will hinder egress. Most definitely would have prevented me climbing out of the window of my Beaver. Door Jammed. Possibly would have led to premature activation, midway through window opening. Having lost watch and multi tool in the process. However if you are lucky enough to get out alive. Then find yourself in the middle of unfavourable water, aircraft sinking. You have no option other than life jackets. Catch 22.
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by PilotDAR » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:38 pm

It added to the humour. I did make a disclaimer it’s for entertainment purposes only.
Also when it comes time to actually using one, many people put it on wrong. I made a video below on how to properly inflate a life vest. Feel free to share this with your passengers.
....Does not mention humour or entertainment only. Why would I share an entertainment only humour video (with errors) with my passengers? This is an important safety topic, not humour nor entertainment!

There is zero purpose to blurring an important safety topic by injecting non serious, inaccurate information to the uninformed. I sure hope that no pilots actually do show your video to their passengers. It could only serve to upset them, while detracting from correct understanding.

So what's the benefit of the video?
I'm pretty certain Life jackets will hinder egress
Could be. Loose clothing could also snag you. It's a risk which can be reduced with some practice and level headed egress, but the risk of snagging will never be none. But, unless rescue is assured within the treading water time of a hopefully non injured person in the water, supplementary flotation is vital. If you're injured, and losing consciousness, a life jacket is your only hope. With a broken shoulder and arm, broken back and two broken legs keeping myself afloat was not possible. I could not even use my good arm to pull the toggle to inflate the lifejacket I was already wearing, as I was holding onto a sinking plane. I was able to manually inflate it, and that made the life or death difference. I remember seeing the yellow portion inflating over my shoulder, then I relaxed and left the rescue to others, I could no longer help myself. I was told that my lifevest had been ripped while exiting the plane, but it held enough air.
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by Heliian » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:28 am

missed-approach wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:19 pm
I'm pretty certain Life jackets will hinder egress. Most definitely would have prevented me climbing out of the window of my Beaver. Door Jammed. Possibly would have led to premature activation, midway through window opening. Having lost watch and multi tool in the process. However if you are lucky enough to get out alive. Then find yourself in the middle of unfavourable water, aircraft sinking. You have no option other than life jackets. Catch 22.
During underwater egress training, we wear all of the gear, haven't seen one inflate on it's own yet. They aren't that bulky and the activation toggles are designed not to snag.
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by missed-approach » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:59 am

My concerns with toggles, are the 20+ years as a professional seafarer. During rescue boat drills on more than one occasion. The manually inflated pfd would activate. Ie toggles snagged on something. Whether that was pulling casualty/dummy out of water or snagging when hooking onto davits. Who knows?! There is an element of risk. That's my only concern. I wish to never experiment. It was tough, a heavy set guy pulling himself out of a DHC2 pilot window. Only wearing t-shirt and dickie pants. The test of time will be if the life jackets will save people trapped in submerged aircraft. Or like lifeboats on ships. Will kill more people than the save. Stay safe everybody
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by PilotDAR » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:13 am

Sure, an inflatable life vest could be accidentally inflated upon exit, or it could snag. So, you should know how to deflate it (maybe the back side of the cap on the manual inflator), and you should either be able to remove it, or cut a strap, similar to a seatbelt cutter. I have one within reach of my seated position.

If you are not wearing the lifevest as you exit the plane, it's not going with you, and you'll be in the water without one. The survivability statistics on that are poor.

Drowning is very high probability, and very high severity. Getting snagged or having a lifevest inflate by accident is a lesser probability, and maybe not even as high a severity.
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by photofly » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:24 am

Just as another data point, Bryan the dunker guy teaches people to put on a life vest in the water. Not as a preference to having one on before the event, but as an acknowledgement that many people won't.

His protocol is to wait for the aircraft to stop moving, grab the lifevest in its pouch, orient relative to the airframe, open the door, release your seatbelt, and go. Then when clear of the aircraft put your head through the vest, and inflate. Then you do up the straps.

The people in this thread who've had to be rescued for real from the water with a life-vest on will have their opinions about that, but that's what he teaches.
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by PilotDAR » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:49 am

Bryan the dunker guy teaches people to put on a life vest in the water. Not as a preference to having one on before the event, but as an acknowledgement that many people won't.
Yes, the take away from Bryan's training is to make it obvious that if you're not wearing it, you are probably leaving without it, at least if you have not practiced a lot in fumbling around for it! I only got it once out of four tries, and I was working at it.
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Re: Mandatory life jacket wearing coming for most seaplanes

Post by Meatservo » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:43 am

vcanews wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:22 am
How often do sea planes end up upside down in the water " not " caused by pilot error?
I saw a commercially-operated Beaver once, when the floats were installed the threaded "boxing wire" rigging rods that criss-cross between the fuselage and the opposite side floats were installed incorrectly. One rod was either damaged on one end or threaded too far into the opposite end- the result was that not very much thread was left where one end of the rod entered the fitting, and the apprentice -one assumes it was an apprentice- thought it was OK. Naturally this failed but not before the Beaver had been quite busy for some time after the floats had been installed. On the landing after a takeoff from some swells, the rod failed and the floats tried to fold up. The pilot felt the gear go all trapezoidal on him on the takeoff and had the presence of mind to land in calm water very close inside the harbour and beach the thing in a boat-slip. It didn't collapse all the way but it definitely looked cock-eyed, and if there had been a swell running in the harbour or the pilot had attempted to turn while on the step, it's easy to imagine that thing hooking a wing and hitting the water sideways in a tangle of struts and wires.

So, no comment on how often seaplanes end up in the water through no fault of the pilot, but it is not "zero" times.
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