Boeing Tumbles on Grand Jury Subpoena Probing 737 MAX Approval

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yycflyguy
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Re: Boeing Tumbles on Grand Jury Subpoena Probing 737 MAX Approval

Post by yycflyguy »

confusedalot wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:43 pm
co-joe wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:44 pm
confusedalot wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:34 pm Must say I have to agree with the above post.

Money and greed are nothing new; you would need to be off the clock psychotic to knowingly, and I say knowingly, put out a faulty product that is guaranteed to attract worldwide media coverage in case things went wrong. Same goes for a regulator that would let that happen. That would result in corporate suicide and zero regulatory credibility.

But who knows?
I don't think it's a matter of putting out a faulty product, rather trying to sneak the max through on the NG type rating with no sim cross training required.
Flew the NG, never flew the max. Did sim evaluations in the max though.

It's the.........same....airplane........from a pilot point of view. New type rating not required.

My US major airline buddy does not even have a max simulator. He flies a max depending on what his schedule says.

No rocket science here.
Actually there may have be some rocket science that wasn't done on this variant. Forward hanging, higher slung, more powerful engines to accommodate ground clearance with a tendency to stall easier approaching the stall changed the flight envelop of the plane. To compensate for that tendency, Boeing engineered the MCAS but then didn't include in AOMs. Sounds like there was a fair bit of new science in this plane.
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: Boeing Tumbles on Grand Jury Subpoena Probing 737 MAX Approval

Post by Daniel Cooper »

Who all is cancelling their MAX orders. Garuda just cancelled 49.
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confusedalot
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Re: Boeing Tumbles on Grand Jury Subpoena Probing 737 MAX Approval

Post by confusedalot »

yycflyguy wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:35 am
confusedalot wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:43 pm
co-joe wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:44 pm

I don't think it's a matter of putting out a faulty product, rather trying to sneak the max through on the NG type rating with no sim cross training required.
Flew the NG, never flew the max. Did sim evaluations in the max though.

It's the.........same....airplane........from a pilot point of view. New type rating not required.

My US major airline buddy does not even have a max simulator. He flies a max depending on what his schedule says.

No rocket science here.
Actually there may have be some rocket science that wasn't done on this variant. Forward hanging, higher slung, more powerful engines to accommodate ground clearance with a tendency to stall easier approaching the stall changed the flight envelop of the plane. To compensate for that tendency, Boeing engineered the MCAS but then didn't include in AOMs. Sounds like there was a fair bit of new science in this plane.
Not debating some engineering changes as in different engines, leading to a slightly changed envelope, and MCAS. An AME would require a bit more differences training, but as stated before, practically the same for a driver except for the TV screens, which are not a big deal. A pilot would get pretty bored with more than a few hours of ground training. Not that much to talk about. I do agree though that omitting the MCAS information, which in itself would not take long to explain, was a dumb move (as explained by Boeing, they did not want to overload new pilots with TMI), which led to tragic situations.
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Re: Boeing Tumbles on Grand Jury Subpoena Probing 737 MAX Approval

Post by palebird »

Boeing is hooped on this one. They all took it just a little too far. Boeing share price is going to take a beating, they are open for multiple major lawsuits and Airbus will feast on it. As will the Chinese. Just watch. What is at stake here is not the fact that training will be improved, MCAS can be reprogrammed, that a second AOA sensor can be added to the circuit or that a disagree light is added in the cockpit. All bandaids for a "new" version of a tired old design. Think 707. That is the only other Boeing jet that sits that low to the ground. The 737 engine ground clearance has always been an issue, even with the JT8. The CFM was not designed for the 737. It was an engine looking for an aircraft. It found it's first home on DC8-70 series aircraft. Then they modded it to fit the 737. It is just mod after mod.And now it has all caught up to Boeing and the FAA.It was inevitable. Greed and arrogance.
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Re: Boeing Tumbles on Grand Jury Subpoena Probing 737 MAX Approval

Post by confusedalot »

Stating the obvious, 727 and 737 are/were deriviteves of the 707 airframe. Retooling costs money I guess, so use the tools you have to save money.

Never quite understood why they scrapped the 757 in favor of the 737. They could have shortened it, and the product would be far more superior.

As far as I can tell, industry pressure from 737 operators wanted to save on retraining costs so they pushed for a variant.

I dunno.

Flew the ng, which was newer. Flew the 757.

757 is nicer.
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Gino Under
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Re: Boeing Tumbles on Grand Jury Subpoena Probing 737 MAX Approval

Post by Gino Under »

If Garuda cancel their order for 50, (they still have to meet with Boeing to negotiate their cancellation request next week) it still represents a $4.? billion loss to Boeing if the order evaporates. But, let's face it, Boeing's too big to fail. Right?

After all, they've got one of their executives sitting as Secretary of Defense, and the U.S. Defense department is one of their biggest customers.
It will be interesting to see how many airlines cancel their orders now that Garuda have stepped forward.

Boeing's lost a lot of credibility with fare paying passengers. Perhaps not with pilots, but fare paying passengers matter more to airlines than pilot opinions. Passenger opinion has center stage right now and it doesn't matter whether or not they can tell the difference between a 67 and a 37. Their's an expression circulating among airline passengers right now and it isn't very complementary for Boeing. Perhaps you've already overheard it?
If it's a Boeing, I ain't going.

When airlines like Garuda cancel an order they have to be prepared to lose production line position. If they choose a different aircraft type they'll be standing in line for quite awhile. Whether it's Boeing, Airbus, or Embraer. That Max order will take years to reappear in whatever OEM model they choose.

If the Max is airborne by this fall, are fare paying passengers going to continue to check with their airline to see what they're flying on?
You betcha! Never underestimate the power of fear.
Boeing's going to wear this.

Gino :partyman:
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rookiepilot
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Re: Boeing Tumbles on Grand Jury Subpoena Probing 737 MAX Approval

Post by rookiepilot »

If airlines cancel orders.....MAX issues provide an excuse to use, not the reason.

Coming recession is the reason.
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Re: Boeing Tumbles on Grand Jury Subpoena Probing 737 MAX Approval

Post by SkySailor »

All I need to know is when to wander in an' buy a board lot of BA. C'mon on, you financial wizards.....gimme all ya got!!! :lol:
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Re: Boeing Tumbles on Grand Jury Subpoena Probing 737 MAX Approval

Post by Diadem »

Gino Under wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:33 pm Passenger opinion has center stage right now and it doesn't matter whether or not they can tell the difference between a 67 and a 37. Their's an expression circulating among airline passengers right now and it isn't very complementary for Boeing. Perhaps you've already overheard it?
If it's a Boeing, I ain't going.
Passengers also can't tell the difference between a 737 and a 320. Hell, most can't tell the difference between a 737 and a CRJ. When it comes time to board, they don't have any idea what type they're stepping onto, and they aren't going to pack up and leave when they pull out the safety briefing card to see what they're sitting on.
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Re: Boeing Tumbles on Grand Jury Subpoena Probing 737 MAX Approval

Post by C-GGGQ »

Pull out the safety card Ha!
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Re: Boeing Tumbles on Grand Jury Subpoena Probing 737 MAX Approval

Post by av8ts »

When passengers book a flight the vast majority just look at price, make the Max flights $50 cheaper and people will fill the plane. It’s as simple as that
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Re: Boeing Tumbles on Grand Jury Subpoena Probing 737 MAX Approval

Post by rookiepilot »

Gino Under wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:33 pm
Their's an expression circulating among airline passengers right now and it isn't very complementary for Boeing. Perhaps you've already overheard it?
If it's a Boeing, I ain't going.
That's a laugh. I don't think so.
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Re: Boeing Tumbles on Grand Jury Subpoena Probing 737 MAX Approval

Post by enbt »

By the fall this will all have blown over and be such a distant memory that nobody will remember much or anything at all about the MAX. Unless of course Boeing doesn't fix the issue and it stays in the news for a few more months. People have short memories, and getting shorter.
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Re: Boeing Tumbles on Grand Jury Subpoena Probing 737 MAX Approval

Post by confusedalot »

As someone said before, the media cherrypicks facts for maximum effect, just to sell the story of the day. Forget about the big picture.

The accidents are bad of course. The technical screwups will be fixed.

Boeing should weather the media storm. I hope so at least.
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