Harbour Air switching to battery powered planes

[Rowdy]

How long does a charge take? Make it pretty difficult to turn a beaver or otter around in that time frame...

[TWSC]

How long does a charge take? Make it pretty difficult to turn a beaver or otter around in that time frame...

Some people have been suggesting switching the batteries out to make a quick turnaround but I can't imagine that being an easy thing to do quickly when the batteries will prob weigh upwards of 1500lbs. Seems unfeasible to me but that's just my 2cents

[C-GGGQ]

China has a company that does it like an oil change you drive in over the pit and a specialized lift pulls the battery out and outs in a new one. It's a3000lb battery just for a small car. I don't see how you'd have the ability to do that swap dockside. Maybe if it was terrestrial and you could roll up a new battery truck like the catering vehicle, but for float planes... I think you'd have to charge.

[digits_]

China has a company that does it like an oil change you drive in over the pit and a specialized lift pulls the battery out and outs in a new one. It's a3000lb battery just for a small car. I don't see how you'd have the ability to do that swap dockside. Maybe if it was terrestrial and you could roll up a new battery truck like the catering vehicle, but for float planes... I think you'd have to charge.

What if you pump in/out the acid somehow? Might as well use a hydrogen solution at that point, but who knows...

[enbt]

There were some interviews about this on local radio with the CEO of Harbour Air and the CEO of MagniX. They said that for every hour of flying it will take 45 minutes to recharge. The Beaver will have about an hour and a half worth of endurance, so enough to do a Vancouver - Victoria round trip. TBO on the engine they claim will be 10,000 hours, so they figure operating costs will be lower in the long run. Greg MacDougall says he is personally going to do the test flying for this. I can't remember what they said about weight of the engines/batteries, but they will be installed under the floor where the fuel tanks currently are so the W+B shouldn't change much. Up till now MagniX has done about 1500 hours of ground run testing with these engines, no flying.

It sure sounds like an ambitious plan. It is making for some good PR this week anyway. It will be interesting to see how it works out in the real world and what sort of issues they run into. There will almost certainly be some teething issues to work through but it is a starting point. I wish them well with this. I had no idea battery technology was anywhere near the level of power, endurance and reliability to power a plane. I thought planes would pretty much always be running on fossil fuel.

[DadoBlade]

Canada's global contribution to green-house gases is around 1.6%. So why not just convert the radial engine Beavers to turbo-props? Most of the PT6A conversion would be Canadian sourced, perhaps done by Viking Air, unlike the U.S.A. based electrical powered solution.

[jakeandelwood]

The engine may have a 10'000 hour tbo but I highly doubt the battery will last a fraction of that especially if it's getting recharged multiple times a day. The aircrafts range will slowly shorten as the battery's ability to hold a charge degrades. I don't know why alcohol isn't being explored as an alternate fuel for gasoline piston engines, I guess cost, it's been used in race cars for years.

[ahramin]

I think you guys are all being silly, it's pretty obvious Mr. MacDougall knows about these issues and is planning on investing in the new really long extension cord technology.

[jakeandelwood]

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-12 ... asics/amp/
I think we'll see small planes running off alcohol before batteries in my opinion, but the extension cord idea has some merrit!

[co-joe]

Wait till you want to apply for a job there, and they ask how much electric time on floats you have. Oh we need 500 hours for our insurance...

[TWSC]

I can just imagine the number of disgruntled dockhands there’ll be if they say the batteries will be swapped out at the dock. All fun and games till someone biffs it and there’s a battery at the bottom of the harbour lol

[digits_]

I think you guys are all being silly, it's pretty obvious Mr. MacDougall knows about these issues and is planning on investing in the new really long extension cord technology.

Especially the wireless ones would be very useful here

[jakeandelwood]

I can just imagine the number of disgruntled dockhands there’ll be if they say the batteries will be swapped out at the dock. All fun and games till someone biffs it and there’s a battery at the bottom of the harbour lol

....along with the dockhand that got the cord mistakenly wrapped around his leg

[ragbagflyer]

This is smart marketing as it helps Harbour Air lock down the eco-consious consumer on the coast, of which there are many. It's going to be a long time before this airline is completely electric but it seems conceivable that they can play around with some prototypes in the near term.

Vancouver - Victoria is likely the last route they'll be flying electric seaplanes on. It's just over 60 miles direct although the frequent routing can result in closer to 80 miles being flown.

Victoria - Richmond gets you down to the 55-65 mile range.

Nanaimo - Vancouver: 40 miles

Nanaimo - Richmond: 35 miles

Nanaimo - Sechelt: 25 miles (without nearly an many people watching unfortunately)

Scenic Flights out of downtown Vancouver: Could be as low as 15 miles

Some VERY rough math below

The current 100 kW.h tesla battery weighs 1200 pounds. 100 kW.h is 133 hp.h. Lets assume 90 percent efficiency of the electric motor and now we have 120 hp.h that can be delivered or to put it another way 240 hp for half an hour. A beaver will fly on 240 hp. The original manual says 1650 RPM at 29.2 inches is 240 hp. That's a bit lower than typical cruise power settings but it's safe to say an optimally designed composite prop on the front of a pointy nose will pull you along on fewer hp than a chunky two blade on the front of a radial.

I've been told that with the once you account for all the extras there's about 900 pounds forward of the engine mount on a beaver (correct me if I'm wrong), plus a heavy lead acid battery. The specs on this magnis motor put it at an estimated 265 pounds. Throw a composite prop on and some cowls and lets call it 400 pounds. If you have a net reduction of 500 pounds the empty beaver on floats is now 3000 pounds. Add in the pilot and a 1200 pound battery pack and a 200 pound pilot and you're up to 4400. Lets call it a gross weight of 5370 (actual range of gross weights is 5090-5600), and now we have about 1000 pounds we can pull around for 30 minutes (not including taxi and takeoff). So there's some serious limitations at current battery storage levels but you could conceivably get the machine airborne with today's technology and we're trending in the right direction with regards to battery storage.

I think the first passenger carrying flights will be scenic tours, with an TC granting an exemption to the 30 minute reserve rule. Say a 15 minute scenic flight with 15 minutes of reserve. That seems reasonable; if you're five minutes from your take off area, and over water the whole time why would you need 30 minutes of reserve. People would line up around the block for these tours.

It won't be any time soon that Harbour Air's fleet is fully electric but they have the means and desire to experiment in this field so good for them!

[jakeandelwood]

30 minutes not including taxi and take off? So that turns into 20 mins at best then half that when the pilot turns on the cabin heat, however that's going to work.

[DadoBlade]

Our Canadian Dollar is presently worth .75 cents in the U.S.A., The electric motor conversion will take place in the U.SA. Is this an affront to an historical Canadian airframe? A Canadian aviation icon goes to America for a conversion? Whahhh...? Trudeau post-nationalist's would, of course, approve of this. The CEO of Harbour Air should consider converting his piston-powered fleet of DHC-2 Beavers to kerosene powered P&W PT6Ds. A Canadian solution. Employ a few Canadians eh?

[shimmydampner]

I laugh at all the nay sayers... we need to stick to our 100 year old piston engines damit.

You're conflating being a luddite with being a realist. No one is suggesting we shun technological advancement in energy production. However, if you can't see this for the obvious PR move that it is, you're a fool. It will be a long, long time before we have electric powered float planes. I certainly won't see it in the remaining span of my career.

[pilotidentity]

I agree the article reads like an advertisement...

"top seaplane airline"
"I'll be the first guy to fly one"

Entertainment Tonight

[Big Pistons Forever]

Car battery capacity has roughly doubled in the last 4 years. Double it again and the numbers start to work.

I bet the technology to allow a 30 min sightsee or Vancouver to Nanaimo will be fully there in 3 years.

One big issue that has not been mentioned is certification standards. Currently there are no provisions in CAR Part 5 to certify an electric propulsion system in a certified airframe

[PilotDAR]

I imagine they will have that STC "within months"

I consulted for the better part of a year toward a similar project. It can. and will be done, but there are a lot of operational and certification hurtles to overcome. It's more than two years off, and when it arrives, the charging will be the ongoing challenge.