English Vs French on the Radio.
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
Like my Brit friend would say, tempest in a teapot?
Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
Don't get confused by the statistics. Those are percentages of the general population, not percentages of the pilots in that region. It would not surprise me that the percentage of French-speaking pilots could be higher in Ottawa than the general population, due to the proximity to Quebec. But in BC, the percentage of pilots who speak Mandarin or Cantonese as their first language is definitely lower than the percentages you reference. There are also Hindi-, Punjabi-, and Farsi-speaking pilots who are ESL.rookiepilot wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:51 pmHere's an interesting stat: (OTTAWA)
"As such it is the largest city in Canada with both English and French as co-official languages.... [T]hose with French as their mother tongue make up 14.2 percent of the population."
And for that small amount // dual language everything.
(RICHMOND BC). "In Richmond, 44.8% indicated Chinese as their mother tongue, 33.1% indicated English".
Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
Um... that's not a tea pot..?
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
If a 5 second transmission is the dfference between something happening or not a lot of other things wen't wrong before that! I have yet to come accross a situation where language, in an ATC world, has been a safety issue.HiFlyChick wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:24 pm Interesting discussion on both sides - not sure which side I agree with at this point.
Just a real world example from a few years ago....
Flying into CYQB (or was it CYOW...can't recall) and listening to the controller talk to another guy in French and me in English. Got clearance to land and in the flare I got a call from ATC in French. My French is limited to understanding little old ladies (who generally speak slower than youngsters), so while I caught my call sign, I couldn't get what he'd said and asked "Say again". He said "Oops - sorry..." and repeated the original transmission in English, but I must confess I wondered if it had've been an emergency (i.e. runway incursion, etc) would the loss of a few precious seconds made a difference...?
Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
Absolutely, I don't think anyone here thinks that speaking French in itself will make a plane crash. It's just one -imo unnecessary- hole in the cheese that one day may or may not contribute to an accident.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
The horrors, just this alone must make it unbearable......
"tout trafic conflictuel s'il vous plaît aviser"!!!
"tout trafic conflictuel s'il vous plaît aviser"!!!
Being stupid around airplanes is a capital offence and nature is a hanging judge!
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
Fortunately, Aviation is a very safe industry and just because there isn’t a causal relationship yet, doesn’t mean there won’t be in the future. The real question is, does understanding the language of other radio transmissions make aviation safer. The answer is obviously true.
The near miss in Providence comes to mind and I put it forth as an example of a US Airways flight crew that avoided a crash by understanding the conversation taking place by ATC and a United Airlines aircraft, which was lost at the airport and on an active runway, in thick fog.
ATC issued a takeoff clearance to US Airways, the pilots refused the clearance as they heard of the lost United Airlines aircraft correspondents with ATC.
Full details here :https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 971f228d28
There’s no doubt that in this instance, if the United Airlines and ATC were speaking another language, not understood by the US Airways flight crew, they would have accepted a takeoff clearance that would have led to a catastrophic crash.
The near miss in Providence comes to mind and I put it forth as an example of a US Airways flight crew that avoided a crash by understanding the conversation taking place by ATC and a United Airlines aircraft, which was lost at the airport and on an active runway, in thick fog.
ATC issued a takeoff clearance to US Airways, the pilots refused the clearance as they heard of the lost United Airlines aircraft correspondents with ATC.
Full details here :https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 971f228d28
There’s no doubt that in this instance, if the United Airlines and ATC were speaking another language, not understood by the US Airways flight crew, they would have accepted a takeoff clearance that would have led to a catastrophic crash.
Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
On the other end anti French speaking warriors on the radio would be all over this one below, had it happen in Quebec during dual French/english transmissions.Rezy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:13 pm Fortunately, Aviation is a very safe industry and just because there isn’t a causal relationship yet, doesn’t mean there won’t be in the future. The real question is, does understanding the language of other radio transmissions make aviation safer. The answer is obviously true.
The near miss in Providence comes to mind and I put it forth as an example of a US Airways flight crew that avoided a crash by understanding the conversation taking place by ATC and a United Airlines aircraft, which was lost at the airport and on an active runway, in thick fog.
ATC issued a takeoff clearance to US Airways, the pilots refused the clearance as they heard of the lost United Airlines aircraft correspondents with ATC.
Full details here :https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 971f228d28
There’s no doubt that in this instance, if the United Airlines and ATC were speaking another language, not understood by the US Airways flight crew, they would have accepted a takeoff clearance that would have led to a catastrophic crash.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angel ... y_disaster
Full report:The SkyWest flight was told to taxi into takeoff position while the USAir flight was landing on the same runway.
Upon landing, the 737 collided with the twin-engine turboprop
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Acc ... AR9108.pdf
Everybody was speaking English there, it didn't stop the tragedy.
Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
First, not everyone in Quebec aviation speaks English. I've often arrived at GA airports where the FBO staff has zero English, or close enough as matters.
Second, it's very tiring working in another language, even if you speak if fairly well. At the end of a day of meetings in French or Spanish, my comprehension is about 40% of what it was first thing in the morning, and my brain is foggy. Why should francophone pilots in Quebec subject themselves to extra fatigue and an elevated risk of misunderstanding all the time just because because an anglo pilot like me might occasionally stumble into their airspace?
If you're nervous, learn just a few dozen aviation phrases in French — piste, approche finale, vent-arrière, verticale de, etc — and you'll be able to follow what's happening in the circuit. It's not like someone's asking you to recite Proust.
Second, it's very tiring working in another language, even if you speak if fairly well. At the end of a day of meetings in French or Spanish, my comprehension is about 40% of what it was first thing in the morning, and my brain is foggy. Why should francophone pilots in Quebec subject themselves to extra fatigue and an elevated risk of misunderstanding all the time just because because an anglo pilot like me might occasionally stumble into their airspace?
If you're nervous, learn just a few dozen aviation phrases in French — piste, approche finale, vent-arrière, verticale de, etc — and you'll be able to follow what's happening in the circuit. It's not like someone's asking you to recite Proust.
@CYRO
Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
Somebody have this man marched to the fence line and shot.....
Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
1. The city of Ottawa is not officially bilingual--that has nothing to do with the issue.rookiepilot wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:51 pm Here's an interesting stat: (OTTAWA)
"As such it is the largest city in Canada with both English and French as co-official languages.... [T]hose with French as their mother tongue make up 14.2 percent of the population."
And for that small amount // dual language everything.
2. Ottawa Terminal airspace covers both the Ontario and Quebec sides of the river (Gatineau as well as Ottawa).
3. The only places a pilot can get ATC service in French are those whose airspace are at least partly over Quebec, while pilots can get ATC service in English right across the country (including inside Quebec). Remind me again why it's us English-speaking pilots who are complaining?
D
@CYRO
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
In my instances, I've repeatedly said on this thread, they happened well within Ontario. meaning -- not just on the border. isn't it reasonable to expect communication in English....within Ontario?dpm wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:37 pm First, not everyone in Quebec aviation speaks English. I've often arrived at GA airports where the FBO staff has zero English, or close enough as matters.
Why should francophone pilots in Quebec subject themselves to extra fatigue and an elevated risk of misunderstanding all the time just because because an anglo pilot like me might occasionally stumble into their airspace?
Does no one read before commenting? Or it doesn't matter?
Never mind. Lost interest.
Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
Actually, your claim of well within Ontario is still a highly doubtful one. You still haven't explained how you know where they were since you don't know where they were.
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
Ok A.
You must be right. I invented the entire thing.
Whatever
But over the campbellville VOR, I think was around there -- at maybe 5000 feet, hearing position reports in French, you all tell me if they are likely in Quebec. Doubt it. Could be wrong.
Also fairly sure I recall hearing traffic on the Cornwall Unicom, in French. Believe that's in Ontario. Of course it COULD have been another airport sharing that freq. Possible. I was pretty low though.
Ottawa terminal, using 2 languages, I think we've beaten that dead horse enough.
As I said, really I've lost interest.
It's a bilingual country. I get it. And having no attributable accidents, it's officially a dumb thread. Everyone happy?
If 2 747's collide because of it one day, we can re argue this.
Last edited by rookiepilot on Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
Yes of course. But then again, there are two official languages in this country so it would be reasonable to expect communication in French.... anywhere.rookiepilot wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:03 pm isn't it reasonable to expect communication in English....within Ontario?
Just my opinion as an Anglo-Canadian who speaks very little French.
Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
I'm sure you realise that ATC boundaries aren't the same as provincial boundaries. Montreal Centre offers service in English and French, and their airspace happens to include part of Eastern Ontario (about as far west as the former Campellford VOR) -- it would be both silly and unnecessarily complicated to tell them to refuse to talk to a pilot in French when they were over Pembroke, start talking in French when they crossed the Ottawa River briefly, stop again when they were on the Ontario side, etc.rookiepilot wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:03 pmIn my instances, I've repeatedly said on this thread, they happened well within Ontario. meaning -- not just on the border. isn't it reasonable to expect communication in English....within Ontario?dpm wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:37 pm First, not everyone in Quebec aviation speaks English. I've often arrived at GA airports where the FBO staff has zero English, or close enough as matters.
Why should francophone pilots in Quebec subject themselves to extra fatigue and an elevated risk of misunderstanding all the time just because because an anglo pilot like me might occasionally stumble into their airspace?
Does no one read before commenting? Or it doesn't matter?
Never mind. Lost interest.
@CYRO
Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
every other country in the world controls traffic in their "official" language(s). Why should Canada be any different?
Black air has no lift - extra fuel has no weight
http://www.blackair.ca
http://www.blackair.ca
Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
Is Canada two countries, with two languages?
Fortunately we have the availability of access to the international language of aviation in their country ( Quebec. )
Fortunately we have the availability of access to the international language of aviation in their country ( Quebec. )
Re: English Vs French on the Radio.
Incorrect.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship