Bonds

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

SoaringHigh
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:52 am

Bonds

Post by SoaringHigh »

Can someone chime in on the actual legality of bonds? Without getting into subpart a. b. c. etc. etc. of the Canadian labour code, I swear I've seen something to the effect of "any on-the-job training must be provided by the employer". I've worked many jobs, and never had to pay for my training... If I'm hired to perform a job that requires a type rating to fly a BE20, why are employers holding employees on the hook for this training? To me it seems this is forcing the employees to buy their training, not provide it. Maybe I'm seeing this wrong.

I feel as though I must have read a thread on this before, but I felt it would be nice to revisit this issue. Thanks any and all for their input.
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Bonds

Post by photofly »

In general, bonds are enforceable. Here's a blog post you should read:
https://aviationlawblog.ahbl.ca/2016/02 ... ng-bond-2/
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5931
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Bonds

Post by digits_ »

Most of them are legal yes.

With a bond, you usually don't pay for on the job training. You just owe the employer money if you leave within a specified time period, typically 1-3 years.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
lownslow
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1709
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:56 am

Re: Bonds

Post by lownslow »

digits_ wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:19 am Most of them are legal yes.

With a bond, you usually don't pay for on the job training. You just owe the employer money if you leave within a specified time period, typically 1-3 years.
This. From a legal point of view it has nothing to do with the training. Having said that, people have argued their way out of a bond in court when the amount had no real basis in reality (like a $50,000, 3-year bond for a Cessna 206 FO, or something). I've also seen some other... interesting arguments that have gone either way in front of a judge.

Alternate plan: don't be a shitty person, there's enough of those already. Have enough self respect to take a good job in the first place and even if there is a bond, an awful lot of outstanding employees can have the balance forgiven when the finish line is in sight.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5931
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Bonds

Post by digits_ »

If anything, a bond makes it morally easier to leave: you pay the agreed amount, and there shouldn't be any hard feelings on either side.

It becomes a whole different story when you are trying to leave because of illegal things and safety issues. Much harder to put your foot down if it could cost you 20k. But that's a different discussion altogether.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
SoaringHigh
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:52 am

Re: Bonds

Post by SoaringHigh »

photofly wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:18 am In general, bonds are enforceable. Here's a blog post you should read:
https://aviationlawblog.ahbl.ca/2016/02 ... ng-bond-2/
Thanks photofly! Very interesting to read the case analysis on this. It is relatively recent, too.
---------- ADS -----------
 
SoaringHigh
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:52 am

Re: Bonds

Post by SoaringHigh »

lownslow wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:30 am
digits_ wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:19 am Most of them are legal yes.

With a bond, you usually don't pay for on the job training. You just owe the employer money if you leave within a specified time period, typically 1-3 years.
This. From a legal point of view it has nothing to do with the training. Having said that, people have argued their way out of a bond in court when the amount had no real basis in reality (like a $50,000, 3-year bond for a Cessna 206 FO, or something). I've also seen some other... interesting arguments that have gone either way in front of a judge.

Alternate plan: don't be a shitty person, there's enough of those already. Have enough self respect to take a good job in the first place and even if there is a bond, an awful lot of outstanding employees can have the balance forgiven when the finish line is in sight.
Right, it makes sense actually. Essentially the employer has put a monetary value upon your months or years of service... And should you depart within specified period, you owe the outstanding balance from day of departure to end of agreed upon period.

Interesting.
---------- ADS -----------
 
seven-oh-nooo
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:35 am

Re: Bonds

Post by seven-oh-nooo »

Does anyone know if training bonds are anything like bail bonds? I have a couple of ex-employees I'd really like to hire a bounty hunter for.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5931
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Bonds

Post by digits_ »

seven-oh-nooo wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:52 am Does anyone know if training bonds are anything like bail bonds? I have a couple of ex-employees I'd really like to hire a bounty hunter for.
Sue them? I'm sure you could find them if you think you have a strong case...

Maybe photofly knows the details, but I've heard people mention on this forum an employer actually has to go after the people who break their bond. If you consistenly don't, then other people could succesfully claim the bond is not enforced and break it without consequences.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Donald
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2368
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:34 am
Location: Canada

Re: Bonds

Post by Donald »

https://www.canlii.org/en/

Type "pilot training bond" in the document search and you will get plenty of hits.

This one is interesting to me, as there wasn't a written agreement but it still held up in court:

https://www.canlii.org/en/nt/ntsc/doc/1 ... ultIndex=1
---------- ADS -----------
 
seven-oh-nooo
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:35 am

Re: Bonds

Post by seven-oh-nooo »

digits_ wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:56 am
seven-oh-nooo wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:52 am Does anyone know if training bonds are anything like bail bonds? I have a couple of ex-employees I'd really like to hire a bounty hunter for.
Sue them? I'm sure you could find them if you think you have a strong case...
Just a joke, digits. I hate that I have to, but I do pursue all of them.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Daigo
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:05 pm

Re: Bonds

Post by Daigo »

Bonds where you pay nothing up front and are pro-rated i can understand. But can anybody try to justify this craziness??

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=131420

"A King Air 200 type rating is required for this position. Due to the nature and location of our business, the type rating is paid by the employee first and then reimbursed back on a monthly basis (with interest) over the term of the employment contract. Air Nunavut can provide a letter of employment to successful candidates should it be required by a lending institution"
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5931
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Bonds

Post by digits_ »

seven-oh-nooo wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:37 am
digits_ wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:56 am
seven-oh-nooo wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:52 am Does anyone know if training bonds are anything like bail bonds? I have a couple of ex-employees I'd really like to hire a bounty hunter for.
Sue them? I'm sure you could find them if you think you have a strong case...
Just a joke, digits. I hate that I have to, but I do pursue all of them.
Do you know what percentage of pilots that owes you money tries to weasel out of it? What are their favorite tactics? Simply "forgetting" to pay, or are there more convoluted schemes? Curious to hear what it looks like from a management perspective.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1948
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Bonds

Post by goingnowherefast »

Daigo wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:15 pm Bonds where you pay nothing up front and are pro-rated i can understand. But can anybody try to justify this craziness??

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=131420

"A King Air 200 type rating is required for this position. Due to the nature and location of our business, the type rating is paid by the employee first and then reimbursed back on a monthly basis (with interest) over the term of the employment contract. Air Nunavut can provide a letter of employment to successful candidates should it be required by a lending institution"
I'd ask them if they would mind me securing the loan against one of their aircraft. The ad says they would pay the interest charges, so it's in their best interest to reduce the rate.

On the other hand, it could be a great investment opportunity. Show them a great mutual fund, and say that's what they're competing against, are they able to match the rate?

It's a pilot's job market, we don't have to put up with crap like that.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Meatservo
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2565
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:07 pm
Location: Negative sequencial vortex

Re: Bonds

Post by Meatservo »

Daigo wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:15 pm Bonds where you pay nothing up front and are pro-rated i can understand. But can anybody try to justify this craziness??

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=131420

"A King Air 200 type rating is required for this position. Due to the nature and location of our business, the type rating is paid by the employee first and then reimbursed back on a monthly basis (with interest) over the term of the employment contract. Air Nunavut can provide a letter of employment to successful candidates should it be required by a lending institution"
Looks like Air Nunavut is trying to push it and see if there are any desperate suckers out there who are stupid enough to go for this piece of shit.

This advertisement must have been posted by some junior business-loser in their HR department with no aviation experience or knowledge of the current climate.

This is like telling a girl at a club that you'll let her blow you for twenty bucks. It just doesn't work like that.
---------- ADS -----------
 
If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself
lownslow
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1709
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:56 am

Re: Bonds

Post by lownslow »

Meatservo wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:52 pm Looks like Air Nunavut is trying to push it and see if there are any desperate suckers out there who are stupid enough to go for this piece of shit.
Why? Isn’t that the purest form of the intent of a training bond? You start with a BE20 rating in hand and can walk out any time you like without guilt or penalty. Nobody gripes about having to get their own CPL or IR to start a job.
---------- ADS -----------
 
goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1948
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Bonds

Post by goingnowherefast »

Then they might as well ask candidates to go to FlightSafety before applying and get their own type rating.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Cleared4TheOption
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:54 pm

Re: Bonds

Post by Cleared4TheOption »

lownslow wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:56 pm Nobody gripes about having to get their own CPL or IR to start a job.
I can't believe I'm going to get into this, lord have mercy...

A CPL and IFR are basic requirements universal to all 703/4/5 jobs. It's like requiring a degree in programing to work at Microsoft. It's expected. A type rating is company specific in that you could only benefit if the company is using that type. Sure, everyone and their dog has a king air 200, but it's not universal.

It is a company's responsibility to ensure their employees are properly trained, and that goes for any job in the world. The cost of training in aviation happens to be extremely expensive, but it is part of the cost of doing business. Every year a PPC has to be done, and the initial type rating is just a more expensive version that only has to be done once.

Having a pilot pay for their own type rating is basically like loaning a company money. And while it removes "guilt" of leaving an employer early, it doesn't guaranty you will ever get that money back. Just because one company says they will reimburse you over time, doesn't mean the other company you move to will pay you anymore than any other new pilots, or pay you anything up front. So now you've taken on a debt to "buy" your way into a job because you payed the company's cost of doing business.

What's next? Should you not only get a type rating but also buy a King Air too? They can lease it from you and over time you might make more money... Heck you can pay the fuel costs too. Whats wrong with being 2 million in debt to get a job that will make up for it and make you filthy rich in 15 years? The rich get richer, because we all know how easy it is to get a 2mill loan. Obviously I'm exaggerating, but where do you draw the line if you start down the road of financing your employer?

Bonds on the other hand are an incentive (or discouragement) to ensure a company is getting a return on their investment in you, and in no way put you financially at risk. I'm actually about to sign a bond and while I don't like it, I do understand it. And if I want to go elsewhere and not feel "guilty", I can pay what remains (or hopefully have my new employer pay it).

What happens if you buy a type rating and your employer has an accident and goes bankrupt and can't repay you? And no one is looking for a 200 driver, but you can get a job on a dash? Boy was that a great investment. And what if the type rating is for a plane almost no one uses?

What I am trying to say is it's not right have to take on debt in the place of a company for something that is not universally required for your career. If a type rating only cost $500 and you really want a job flying that type? OK sure you're not going to be in debt for that, but in reality it is too expensive to expect individuals to absorb the cost themselves.
---------- ADS -----------
 
2112
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:33 pm

Re: Bonds

Post by 2112 »

Stop signing bonds and they will disappear...if we can collectively grow a spine and refuse that is. On my fourth job now, never signed a bond but also never worked anywhere less than two years.
---------- ADS -----------
 
172_Captain
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 126
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: Bonds

Post by 172_Captain »

2112 wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:07 am Stop signing bonds and they will disappear...if we can collectively grow a spine and refuse that is. On my fourth job now, never signed a bond but also never worked anywhere less than two years.
Yes. It is just that easy. /s
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”