Bonds

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palebird
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Re: Bonds

Post by palebird »

Don't sign. If the company wants you bad enough they will drop the requirement. If you already work for them and they insist you sign a bond to stay employed make sure you have a witness. And take them to court when they try to collect. You will probably win.
Air Canada, Canadian North, Cargo Jet, Transat, to name a few don't use bonds. I know Porter requires a bond. Not sure about the rest.
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Cleared4TheOption
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Re: Bonds

Post by Cleared4TheOption »

palebird wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:14 pm Air Canada, Canadian North, Cargo Jet, Transat, to name a few don't use bonds.
I know for a fact at least one of those companies has quite a hefty 1 year bond. And given the pay and upgrade opportunities you almost have to be stupid to refuse to sign it.
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V3-HGX
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Re: Bonds

Post by V3-HGX »

Transat had a 3-year, $30000 bond as of a few months ago.
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Grey_Wolf
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Re: Bonds

Post by Grey_Wolf »

palebird wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:14 pm Don't sign. If the company wants you bad enough they will drop the requirement. If you already work for them and they insist you sign a bond to stay employed make sure you have a witness. And take them to court when they try to collect. You will probably win.
Air Canada, Canadian North, Cargo Jet, Transat, to name a few don't use bonds. I know Porter requires a bond. Not sure about the rest.
Porter has a bond? How much? :mrgreen:
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HiFlyChick
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Re: Bonds

Post by HiFlyChick »

photofly wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:39 am ...It’s very expensive and time consuming for a small company to try to recover money. Legal costs would probably cost more than the debt, and even if you win in court the practical chance of getting a delinquent pilot to pay up what they owe is very small....
This
palebird wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:14 pm ...And take them to court when they try to collect. You will probably win.
I'd love to hear someone comment who has actually sued another entity. I'm sure the airlines have lawyers on staff, but small companies and individuals have to pay the hourly rate, which gets real big real quick.

A few times over the years I've had to pay a lawyer to vet a document (not create the document, but just look it over), and the bill made me choke - and this after they kept missing corrections that I requested, and misspelling my name when they insisted it be inserted in a certain part of the document. I had a friend of a friend who had prolonged divorce proceedings that ended up being in the 6-figure range.

Even assuming that courts award payment of legal fees if you win, there's no guarantee you will actually win, and you may have exceedingly compounded your loss by adding in tens of thousand of dollars in legal fees.
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photofly
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Re: Bonds

Post by photofly »

Don't forget that even if you get a court judgement, you then have to track down the delinquent and try to get them to pay something. Probably you'll end up garnishing their wages for about $20 per week. For 10 years.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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complexintentions
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Re: Bonds

Post by complexintentions »

FADEC wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:50 pm Remember JetsGo?
Leblanc required Training Bonds; 30K, a lot of pilots were out of substantial amounts of money when the company failed.
No.

JetsGo aka "Canada 30,000" required bank guarantees, ie hard cash, of $30,000 to be put up by pilots, at hiring. Not the same as a bond AT ALL, and perfectly illustrates the point why being forced to become an ad-hoc investor in an airline is a terrible idea. It was basically a Ponzi scheme, some of the the guys who got in at the beginning and got the MD80 rating got their money back as the company lasted just long enough to repay them, then moved on to better contract jobs with the garnered experience. Folks at the middle and particularly the end, got screwed.

If they HAD been bonds, the pilots would have walked away losing only their job. (And self-respect, and dignity, etc etc but we're only discussing economics here :mrgreen: )

I've had a couple bonds in my career, not a big deal. Well worth it, the jobs allowed me to progress to the point where now I have the ratings and the experience to avoid them altogether. But I would NEVER have put my own capital at risk.

That is the role of an investor, not an employee. Know the difference.
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Last edited by complexintentions on Thu May 02, 2019 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
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complexintentions
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Re: Bonds

Post by complexintentions »

goingnowherefast wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:02 am I once interviewed at a company, they said the bond was up front and specified the interest rate. I went home and looked at my financial situation. I could not secure financing at the rate the company offered. Long story short, I was going to loose approximately $200 in interest over the course of the loan. I didn't take the job.
Sorry, but you turned down a job for fear of uh, "loosing" a couple hundred bucks? I sure hope there were some other factors as well...sheesh.
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I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
C.W.E.
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Re: Bonds

Post by C.W.E. »

Sorry, but you turned down a job for fear of uh, "loosing" a couple hundred bucks? I sure hope there were some other factors as well...sheesh.
That can be a lot of money to some pilots.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Bonds

Post by rookiepilot »

Pilots who will ultimately make 250 K a year, yet won't risk $200.

Getting the big bucks In a career........usually involves taking some financial risks.

Risk, security, big dough, lifestyle, hours.

You have to choose. Rarely get it all.
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digits_
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Re: Bonds

Post by digits_ »

rookiepilot wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 2:18 pm Pilots who will ultimately make 250 K a year, yet won't risk $200.

Getting the big bucks In a career........usually involves taking some financial risks.

Risk, security, big dough, lifestyle, hours.

You have to choose. Rarely get it all.
Chosing a company with the 200 CAD loss over a company that does not require a bond will lead you to a 250k job? There is no reason nowadays why you should accept such a risk. It's more about the XXk you have to put up, than just the 200 dollar cost, but it is still ridiculous. Lots of other options.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Bonds

Post by rookiepilot »

digits_ wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 2:31 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 2:18 pm Pilots who will ultimately make 250 K a year, yet won't risk $200.

Getting the big bucks In a career........usually involves taking some financial risks.

Risk, security, big dough, lifestyle, hours.

You have to choose. Rarely get it all.
Chosing a company with the 200 CAD loss over a company that does not require a bond will lead you to a 250k job? There is no reason nowadays why you should accept such a risk. It's more about the XXk you have to put up, than just the 200 dollar cost, but it is still ridiculous. Lots of other options.
Gee I don't know. In the bigger picture of where it leads, to me $200 bucks is meaningless.

The big picture is what matters, to me.

I would choose the better company, more financially secure and greater chance of advancement, and accept the terms are tougher as part of that deal.(maybe cause they have a great reputation and everyone wants to work there.)

In a heartbeat.

Seems to me (some) pilots want it both ways. Don't want to work for the slimeball operator with scummy maintenance, but don't want to sign a bond to work for a better company. Companies with great reputations probably have pilots lined up who are willing to sign a bond. They don't care if someone says no. They know they are gold and everyone wants to work there.

Nothing is for free, unless you're so experienced you have your pick. So what's most important?

That being said I'd never loan a company money without solid security on their part.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Bonds

Post by goingnowherefast »

The pay was pretty crap too, but having to pay them to get the low paying job just seemed too much. Took a few weeks, but got a better offer, and no bond from another company.
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digits_
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Re: Bonds

Post by digits_ »

rookiepilot wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 2:34 pm but don't want to sign a bond to work for a better company. Companies with great reputations probably have pilots lined up who are willing to sign a bond. They don't care if someone says no. They know they are gold and everyone wants to work there.
Curious what those golden companies are that require bonds and/or money up front? Companies with a crappy reputation might not get any applicants if they have a bond. But that doesn't mean that companies that require a bond are super great either. They might just be able to hide their negative sides better. After all, if they were really that great, people wouldn't have been leaving after 1/2/3 years, and thus not require a bond.

It's a difficult trade off, but in this hiring climate, I'd be extremely suspicious if you have to pay money up front, and I'd be very careful signing any bond.
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Re: Bonds

Post by rookiepilot »

digits_ wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 6:22 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 2:34 pm but don't want to sign a bond to work for a better company. Companies with great reputations probably have pilots lined up who are willing to sign a bond. They don't care if someone says no. They know they are gold and everyone wants to work there.
Curious what those golden companies are that require bonds and/or money up front?
Talking generalization, and I've heard that there are SOME good companies out there. Maybe those companies would be worth some flexibility. Everything is negotiable. I suppose like any career, all depends on what one is bringing to the table, too.

I wouldn't, if it were me, support money up front without guaranteed security. Too much risk.

Hiring environment may change. I'd value being with a stable company as opposed to one that will blow up in the next recession
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seven-oh-nooo
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Re: Bonds

Post by seven-oh-nooo »

digits_ wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 6:22 pm It's a difficult trade off, but in this hiring climate, I'd be extremely suspicious if you have to pay money up front, and I'd be very careful signing any bond.
It's very easy to say, but put yourself in my shoes.

I rack up six thousand dollars in training expenses on one new pilot. This new pilot, fresh PPC in hand, does one charter and gets a call from Georgian that they had someone back out of a groundschool starting Monday and can he come. Of course he says yes. This is not unrealistic, in fact I've had new pilots ghost me without doing a single line flight and just leave their company material outside the hangar door.

Do I:

a) Deal with it? Training is my (personal) expense to bear.
b) Pass that expense to the next customer? They exist to cover my costs.
c) Do something to protect my investment in this individual? A bond is excellent insurance but a promissory note is in better faith, I think.
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digits_
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Re: Bonds

Post by digits_ »

seven-oh-nooo wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 8:24 am
digits_ wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 6:22 pm It's a difficult trade off, but in this hiring climate, I'd be extremely suspicious if you have to pay money up front, and I'd be very careful signing any bond.
It's very easy to say, but put yourself in my shoes.

I rack up six thousand dollars in training expenses on one new pilot. This new pilot, fresh PPC in hand, does one charter and gets a call from Georgian that they had someone back out of a groundschool starting Monday and can he come. Of course he says yes. This is not unrealistic, in fact I've had new pilots ghost me without doing a single line flight and just leave their company material outside the hangar door.

Do I:

a) Deal with it? Training is my (personal) expense to bear.
b) Pass that expense to the next customer? They exist to cover my costs.
c) Do something to protect my investment in this individual? A bond is excellent insurance but a promissory note is in better faith, I think.
Oh, I understand. But from a pilot's point of view, why would he sign a bond if he's interested for other companies as well? That being said, leaving after training before line flying is a dick move.

I don't know what your hiring requirements are, but I've worked with a company that had a 2 year bond and people left after 6 months to go to the regionals. For them, the solution would be extremely easy: lower the FO requirements from 1000 hours to 250 hours. 250 hour pilots don't have the time, generally, to be hired by the regionals that quickly. They were so focused on hiring as high time candidates as they could find to save on training costs, that they wouldn't entertain the idea of 250 hour fos.

Not sure if we are talking about a 250 hour pilot in your example. If we aren't, maybe that could be a solution? And sure, the training costs could be higher, or even double, but if the 250 hour pilot costs twice as much to train, but stays 3 times as long as any other pilot, you'd still come out ahead.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Bonds

Post by rookiepilot »

seven-oh-nooo wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 8:24 am
I rack up six thousand dollars in training expenses on one new pilot. This new pilot, fresh PPC in hand, does one charter and gets a call from Georgian that they had someone back out of a groundschool starting Monday and can he come. Of course he says yes. This is not unrealistic, in fact I've had new pilots ghost me without doing a single line flight and just leave their company material outside the hangar door.
Don't expect sympathy on these forums, my fellow small business owner.

Too many people in the world think this way in terms of their character principles:

1) It's every man for himself, screw being honourable in any way shape or form; (But scream bloody murder if a company acts the same way)
2) Loyalty is for service animals.
3) All the companies are evil blood sucking scum anyway, so that justifies a decision to break my my word / contract

And one wonders why such things as bonds exist?
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Cleared4TheOption
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Re: Bonds

Post by Cleared4TheOption »

It's unfortunate, but there are still some people like myself that are happy to give 2-5 years before moving on. I could name several pilots at my last company who stayed 2+ years despite it being an entry level job on a single piston. That's why a bond doesn't bother me too much so long there are provisions for circumstances such as layoff, discharge, injury etc.

Lets call it having a "Not a dick" clause.
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