Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

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dstechnical
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Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by dstechnical » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:47 am

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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by North Shore » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:05 am

I think that’s the whole point, isn’t it? Make carbon-intensive things more expensive so that we do less of them. If we still wish to to continue, then the market should figure out a cheaper way of doing things.
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by digits_ » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:25 am

That's true, but the problem with that is that *everything* we do is affected by fuel costs and produces carbon. Even transporting environmentally friendly recyclabe bags or reusable drinking containers etc are transported at some point. That gets more expensive as well then.

Unless you grow all your vegetables in your own back yard, prices will increase for everything we eat, buy or do.
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by munzil » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:53 am

digits_ wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:25 am
, prices will increase for everything we eat, buy or do.
But our salaries, of course, will stay the same.
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by flyguy73 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:08 am

digits_ wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:25 am
That's true, but the problem with that is that *everything* we do is affected by fuel costs and produces carbon. Even transporting environmentally friendly recyclabe bags or reusable drinking containers etc are transported at some point. That gets more expensive as well then.

Unless you grow all your vegetables in your own back yard, prices will increase for everything we eat, buy or do.
That's right and again, that's the point. And perhaps that means looking at alternative ways such as buying local instead of importing, using less expensive means of transportation (ie, carpool or buy electric vehicles or hybrids), being more choosing in what we purchase (ie, don't buy a large SUV if you can get by with smaller vehicle) or buying less airline trips (ie, hold a teleconference instead of physically travelling for work).

It's possible to do all these things to both reduce our tax burden AND save the environment while still doing what we did before and with NO economic impact.

And don't talk about how we should only do it when the US or China does it too. That's the wrong attitude. Change starts at home.
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by Donald » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:50 am

flyguy73 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:08 am
That's the wrong attitude. Change starts at home.
You're right. To celebrate earth day and doing the right thing, I'm going to take the private jet out to Tofino for some surfing.
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by SkySailor » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:06 am

flyguy73 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:08 am
digits_ wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:25 am
That's true, but the problem with that is that *everything* we do is affected by fuel costs and produces carbon. Even transporting environmentally friendly recyclabe bags or reusable drinking containers etc are transported at some point. That gets more expensive as well then.

Unless you grow all your vegetables in your own back yard, prices will increase for everything we eat, buy or do.
That's right and again, that's the point. And perhaps that means looking at alternative ways such as buying local instead of importing, using less expensive means of transportation (ie, carpool or buy electric vehicles or hybrids), being more choosing in what we purchase (ie, don't buy a large SUV if you can get by with smaller vehicle) or buying less airline trips (ie, hold a teleconference instead of physically travelling for work).

It's possible to do all these things to both reduce our tax burden AND save the environment while still doing what we did before and with NO economic impact.

And don't talk about how we should only do it when the US or China does it too. That's the wrong attitude. Change starts at home.
What a crock.......
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digits_
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by digits_ » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:32 am

Donald wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:50 am
flyguy73 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:08 am
That's the wrong attitude. Change starts at home.
You're right. To celebrate earth day and doing the right thing, I'm going to take the private jet out to Tofino for some surfing.
As long as you use an eco-friendly hennep made surfboard that's ok.
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by altiplano » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:47 am

Carbon taxation is a consumption tax.

Consumption taxes are better than taxing things like income, or savings. It's where the focus of our taxation should shift. That's what BC did, the money from carbon taxes offsets provincial income taxation... it doesn't go into general coffers.

I'm getting a few hundred dollars off my income taxes this year for the CAI. If you are carbon intensive in your life you pay, if you aren't, you actually come out ahead in the deal...

Cap and trade was a scheme, good riddance. I would support more carbon and consumption taxation if they shifted the gain off my income and investment taxation.

Tax consumption, not creation.
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by flyguy73 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:15 am

SkySailor wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:06 am
flyguy73 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:08 am
digits_ wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:25 am
That's true, but the problem with that is that *everything* we do is affected by fuel costs and produces carbon. Even transporting environmentally friendly recyclabe bags or reusable drinking containers etc are transported at some point. That gets more expensive as well then.

Unless you grow all your vegetables in your own back yard, prices will increase for everything we eat, buy or do.
That's right and again, that's the point. And perhaps that means looking at alternative ways such as buying local instead of importing, using less expensive means of transportation (ie, carpool or buy electric vehicles or hybrids), being more choosing in what we purchase (ie, don't buy a large SUV if you can get by with smaller vehicle) or buying less airline trips (ie, hold a teleconference instead of physically travelling for work).

It's possible to do all these things to both reduce our tax burden AND save the environment while still doing what we did before and with NO economic impact.

And don't talk about how we should only do it when the US or China does it too. That's the wrong attitude. Change starts at home.
What a crock.......
How so? What part of this do you dispute? Facts only please.
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by mbav8r » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:34 pm

flyguy73 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:15 am
[quote=SkySailor post_id=<a href="tel:1076317">1076317</a> time=<a href="tel:1556298404">1556298404</a> user_id=27218]
[quote=flyguy73 post_id=<a href="tel:1076304">1076304</a> time=<a href="tel:1556291294">1556291294</a> user_id=29897]
[quote=digits_ post_id=<a href="tel:1076298">1076298</a> time=<a href="tel:1556288727">1556288727</a> user_id=34065]
That's true, but the problem with that is that *everything* we do is affected by fuel costs and produces carbon. Even transporting environmentally friendly recyclabe bags or reusable drinking containers etc are transported at some point. That gets more expensive as well then.

Unless you grow all your vegetables in your own back yard, prices will increase for everything we eat, buy or do.
That's right and again, that's the point. And perhaps that means looking at alternative ways such as buying local instead of importing, using less expensive means of transportation (ie, carpool or buy electric vehicles or hybrids), being more choosing in what we purchase (ie, don't buy a large SUV if you can get by with smaller vehicle) or buying less airline trips (ie, hold a teleconference instead of physically travelling for work).

It's possible to do all these things to both reduce our tax burden AND save the environment while still doing what we did before and with NO economic impact.

And don't talk about how we should only do it when the US or China does it too. That's the wrong attitude. Change starts at home.
[/quote]

What a crock.......
[/quote]

How so? What part of this do you dispute? Facts only please.
[/quote]
Personally, I would dispute the bold part. There is no way, one way or the other to know that, but I would argue it’s more likely to have an impact on the economy. It’s make just about every single daily thing cost more, if we buy local, supply and demand will kick in and prices will go up. Once people have less discretionary income left over, guess what gets cut first, non essential spending which drives the economy.
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by PilotDAR » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:25 pm

We have had a several generations long habit of really hurting our environment, without understanding the true impact until recently. We were spending our kids future environment, for our convenience and fun. The fact that this was a multi generation habit makes it all the harder to kick. It's going to take more than a generation to change the casual attitude toward consumption of fossil fuel. For the generation to come, we'll still have to do it, but there needs to be a strong motivation to cut back where possible. And, there needs to be good incentives to economize where it's possible. So, if a carbon tax is applied so that consumption costs, and subsidies are paid out of that to create incentives to find alternatives to fuel consumption, I'm all for it! Tax the carbon, I'll consider more carefully how much I really need to burn!

And, while we're at it, all those people, companies and industries who pollute by needlessly burning should be extra carbon taxed for it. After 25 years as a volunteer firefighter, I have seen a lot of careless, hugely polluting fires - right up to people burning down a house, rather than demolishing it properly, or people slash burning the world's forests, instead of chipping and composting, they should really be taxed/fined for climate carelessness!

If electric cars were silly cheap, because huge polluters were subsidizing them, more people would drive electric. I had my diesel VW emission corrected, and drive it with enjoyment, thinking to myself, that it may be the last standard transmission, fuel burning car I ever own, so I better have the fun while I can!
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by flyguy73 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:50 pm

PilotDAR wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:25 pm
We have had a several generations long habit of really hurting our environment, without understanding the true impact until recently. We were spending our kids future environment, for our convenience and fun. The fact that this was a multi generation habit makes it all the harder to kick. It's going to take more than a generation to change the casual attitude toward consumption of fossil fuel. For the generation to come, we'll still have to do it, but there needs to be a strong motivation to cut back where possible. And, there needs to be good incentives to economize where it's possible. So, if a carbon tax is applied so that consumption costs, and subsidies are paid out of that to create incentives to find alternatives to fuel consumption, I'm all for it! Tax the carbon, I'll consider more carefully how much I really need to burn!

And, while we're at it, all those people, companies and industries who pollute by needlessly burning should be extra carbon taxed for it. After 25 years as a volunteer firefighter, I have seen a lot of careless, hugely polluting fires - right up to people burning down a house, rather than demolishing it properly, or people slash burning the world's forests, instead of chipping and composting, they should really be taxed/fined for climate carelessness!

If electric cars were silly cheap, because huge polluters were subsidizing them, more people would drive electric. I had my diesel VW emission corrected, and drive it with enjoyment, thinking to myself, that it may be the last standard transmission, fuel burning car I ever own, so I better have the fun while I can!
100% agree, except for the VW being the last fun car you'll drive. Get an electric. I guarantee it will put a broad smile on your face. And knowing that you're saving all that money on gas will make even broader. I have an EV and I would never want to go back to a gas car again. And living in Ontario means nearly 100% green electricity production. It's the one good thing the Liberals did while in power.
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by Donald » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:58 pm

So should Air Transat and Sunwing be shut down immediately? Hard to justify the all-inclusive Mexico or Cuba trips using the above logic.
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by flyguy73 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:07 pm

That's right and again, that's the point. And perhaps that means looking at alternative ways such as buying local instead of importing, using less expensive means of transportation (ie, carpool or buy electric vehicles or hybrids), being more choosing in what we purchase (ie, don't buy a large SUV if you can get by with smaller vehicle) or buying less airline trips (ie, hold a teleconference instead of physically travelling for work).

It's possible to do all these things to both reduce our tax burden AND save the environment while still doing what we did before and with NO economic impact.

And don't talk about how we should only do it when the US or China does it too. That's the wrong attitude. Change starts at home.
What a crock.......
How so? What part of this do you dispute? Facts only please.
Personally, I would dispute the bold part. There is no way, one way or the other to know that, but I would argue it’s more likely to have an impact on the economy. It’s make just about every single daily thing cost more, if we buy local, supply and demand will kick in and prices will go up. Once people have less discretionary income left over, guess what gets cut first, non essential spending which drives the economy.
Well, in theory, if at the end of the day I have $100 extra in my pocket, I can spend it by going to the movies and put this money into the hands of an American movie studio or I can go flying and give $95 to the Canadian FBO and oil companies and $5 to the government and they can distribute it by subsidizing green technology, hopefully within Canada. In scenario 2, I get a cleaner earth and Canadians get paid jobs. In scenario 1, neither happens. In theory, that is. What political cronies actually get paid out of this is another issue.
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Last edited by flyguy73 on Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by flyguy73 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:14 pm

Donald wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:58 pm
So should Air Transat and Sunwing be shut down immediately? Hard to justify the all-inclusive Mexico or Cuba trips using the above logic.
Nobody said anything should be shut down. But if airline tickets cost 1% more on Sunwing because they fly inefficient planes, then perhaps they would eventually switch over to more fuel efficient planes in order to cut costs and lower prices to the point that people will fly them again.

If you end up not going to Cuba because the extra $12 ticket price, then that's your call and mission accomplished. Or if you go and pay the extra $12 then that extra $12 will subsidize the development of more fuel efficient engines for Sunwing to eventually buy.

See how this works? Nobody is telling you that you can't do what you want. But chances are you choose with your wallet the same as everyone else does.
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by A346Dude » Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:28 pm

flyguy73 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:07 pm
Well, in theory, if at the end of the day I have $100 extra in my pocket, I can spend it by going to the movies and put this money into the hands of an American movie studio or I can go flying and give $95 to the Canadian FBO and oil companies and $5 to the government and they can distribute it by subsidizing green technology, hopefully within Canada. In scenario 2, I get a cleaner earth and Canadians get paid jobs. In scenario 1, neither happens. In theory, that is. What political cronies actually get paid out of this is another issue.
Wow, so the carbon tax means I actually get to do/buy even more stuff than I am now? Potentially one which is fairly GHG intensive (GA flying)? Sign me up!
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by Old fella » Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:43 pm

Ah, the environment and climate...... what is refreshing to see is the generational change as to what we did( to numerous to mention)the many years back. I applaud this generation in recognizing the continued ongoing damage and more to the point , demanding concrete action. Their voices will get much stronger as my crowd dies off- probably not soon enough. My fearless prediction is when my grandkids finish their working lives in 60+ years the biggest issue and expense will be cleaning up the Alberta oil/tar sands outhouse.
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by flyguy73 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:04 pm

A346Dude wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:28 pm
flyguy73 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:07 pm
Well, in theory, if at the end of the day I have $100 extra in my pocket, I can spend it by going to the movies and put this money into the hands of an American movie studio or I can go flying and give $95 to the Canadian FBO and oil companies and $5 to the government and they can distribute it by subsidizing green technology, hopefully within Canada. In scenario 2, I get a cleaner earth and Canadians get paid jobs. In scenario 1, neither happens. In theory, that is. What political cronies actually get paid out of this is another issue.
Wow, so the carbon tax means I actually get to do/buy even more stuff than I am now? Potentially one which is fairly GHG intensive (GA flying)? Sign me up!
Yep. With a carbon tax, you can fly as much as you want. And I will reap the benefits of a cleaner world on your dime because you subsidized my electric car. Eventually you will get tired of funding my dream of a cleaner world and will reduce your flying because it costs too much and I will win.
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by DanWEC » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:27 pm

Don't worry, since they "can't" pass on the expense to the customer we'll just take a pay cut and the prices will remain the same for everyone else with a normal job.
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:57 pm

Well I drive a new big SUV that gets poor gas mileage and I bought it because I can afford to own and drive it.

So if I decide to get a less expensive better gas mileage vehicle what do I do with this one?

If I sell it someone else will drive it so there really is no less carbon emissions is there.

Should I have it crushed and recycled to cut down on carbon emissions for the good of the planet?
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by Cleared4TheOption » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:29 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:57 pm
Well I drive a new big SUV that gets poor gas mileage and I bought it because I can afford to own and drive it.

So if I decide to get a less expensive better gas mileage vehicle what do I do with this one?

If I sell it someone else will drive it so there really is no less carbon emissions is there.

Should I have it crushed and recycled to cut down on carbon emissions for the good of the planet?
The environmental cost of building a new more fuel efficient SUV to replace the one you crush would be FAR worse. That's not the idea.

The idea is you can't afford (or don't want to pay) the huge gas cost to drive it 40,000km per year to drive your kids to school with 1 backpack in the trunk. But the person who buys it from you is a soccer coach hauling gear to every game and only drives 10,000km per year, and as such can justify the gas cost.

And it's not just about the IMMEDIATE impact. It's about accelerating the development of new technologies that will be greatly beneficial in the long run. I don't know the details of how the tax is spent, but I wish a very large chunk was exclusively for subsidizing development of environmentally friendly technologies and subsidizing the purchase of those technologies (individuals or industry).
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by YBW-Kid » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:30 pm

Something about electric cars most people are not considering. Do some research and find out how much of the cost of each litre of gasoline you purchase is actually Provincial or Federal road tax. So we all switch to electric vehicles and the Governments coffers will drastically decrease because of the lack of gasoline road tax revenues. So you know they will have to replace these lost tax revenues and find some way to tax electric vehicles.

I suspect in the future, your electric vehicle will cost $3-$4000 for it's annual registration.

Then if autonomous self driving cars are introduced into the picture on a massive scale, in theory there will be no more traffic violations and tickets which generate Municipal and Provincial revenues to the tune of billions of dollars lost annually. So they will have to tack on another couple thousand to that annual registration.

You know the insurance industry will crank up the premiums for electric self driving cars just because they will try to convince you they should.

So much for cheaper alternative transportation.
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by Cleared4TheOption » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:44 pm

HUGE over-exaggeration there. I spend less than $2,400 per year in gas (probably closer to half that), are you suggesting 100% of gas prices is tax?

50L tank getting 500km per tank... 10L/100km or 1L/10km.
30,000km per year = 3000L of gas
At $1.50 per liter that's $4,500

So a not insignificant distance driven per year with poor-average fuel economy couldn't possibly generate $3000 to $4000 per year in tax revenue.
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Re: Carbon tax will drive up airline tickets

Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:31 pm

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