Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

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intoflying
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Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by intoflying » Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:26 pm

Hi All, I'm aware that it's legally not possible to fly people from source to destination without having some sort of air taxi license.

How about providing sightseeing. Can I get paid directly by someone to fly them over the city as long as we don't land anywhere and return to the same airport? basically sightseeing.
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by Aviatard » Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:49 pm

No.
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by PilotDAR » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:02 pm

No.
That covers the topic well.

Unless, of course, you're operating under the authority of an appropriate operating certificate, but then, you probably would not feel the need to ask the question.....

Thought of differently, unless the airplane, and the pilot are both "commercial", and there's an OC in effect for the flying, no passenger commerce should take place for the flight. There are a few exceptions, but not in the air taxi and sightseeing realm.
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intoflying
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by intoflying » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:08 pm

OK, so if the plane is owned by a corporation, and if the pilot hired is CPL, what kind of "operating certificate" does the company need to offer sightseeing as a service?
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by intoflying » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:12 pm

Transport Canada?
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Last edited by intoflying on Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by photofly » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:41 pm

Yes.
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by TheRealMcCoy » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:46 pm

You could just get them to pay for the gas?
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by photofly » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:50 pm

You’d have to share the cost, they can’t pay all of it.
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by Aviatard » Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:26 pm

I believe the test is that the passengers need be incidental to the flight. In other words you’d still do the flight even if the passengers didn’t go.
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by photofly » Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:45 pm

That’s not a great test, for instance you’re entitled to decide that without a passenger with whom to share the cost, it’s too expensive, and you won’t fly.
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by confusedalot » Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:47 pm

You clearly know the rules, so unless you have a cpl as a driver, can't do it legally. Then comes all of that commercial operating certificate stuff.

If you can set the whole thing up as a non profit, maybe that would work? Sketchy I know, but in this world of billion dollar corporations getting taxpayer handouts, who knows? Maybe it could fly.
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by Aviatard » Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:53 pm

photofly wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:45 pm
That’s not a great test, for instance you’re entitled to decide that without a passenger with whom to share the cost, it’s too expensive, and you won’t fly.
Right but you won’t be exposing the unsuspecting public to your unregulated death trap of a sight seeing operation if you don’t fly.
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by Bede » Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:47 pm

Here is a case dealing with this exact thing:

http://www.tatc.gc.ca/decision/decision ... dc_id=1498
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by lownslow » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:36 pm

PilotDAR wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:02 pm
No.
There are a few exceptions, but not in the air taxi and sightseeing realm.
If the airplane is something special there’s an exemption to holding a OC to provide ‘experience flights.’ That would be for warbird operators and the like, and there are still hoops to jump through.

I forget the exact wording of the thing, and I expect that TC would be fine if you did this in a T-6 and less fine with a T-41.
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by jakeandelwood » Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:17 pm

intoflying wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:08 pm
OK, so if the plane is owned by a corporation, and if the pilot hired is CPL, what kind of "operating certificate" does the company need to offer sightseeing as a service?
Many corporately owned planes are private, so I don't think they have operating certificates as they don't carry paying passengers. I've never gotten an operating certificate but I imagine it is no quick and simple task.
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by DanWEC » Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:41 pm

Hey I'm only asking out of curiosity, what sort of license do you have?
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by photofly » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:27 am

jakeandelwood wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:17 pm
Many corporately owned planes are private, so I don't think they have operating certificates as they don't carry paying passengers. I've never gotten an operating certificate but I imagine it is no quick and simple task.
All pressurized turbine aircraft with more than six seats and all jet aircraft need an operator’s certificate from Transport Canada even when operated privately. See Part 604.

Getting the certificate is not the problem, building and maintaining the staffing, maintenance and management structure to meet the requirements of holding a certificate is.
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by Heliian » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:05 am

Part 604 can't do sightseeing for pay.

Only part 4 and part 7 operators can provide sightseeing flights. Those aircraft are staffed with CPL's

A CPL on it's own is not authorization, you're still a private pilot when flying your own plane.
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by PilotDAR » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:11 am

So, intoflying, you can see the bump in your road by coming on to a website populated with many CPL's who fly by the rules, to say that you'd like to collect some revenue doing what they are paid to do, without jumping through the hoops they have. Good on you for asking, but this very well documented, and explained in regulation.

When the dust has cleared on your question here, look at the insurance on the plane. If you had an accident carrying paying passengers on a private flight, would the insurer be ready to cover you, even though you had not arranged the correct insurance for a commercial flight?
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by jakeandelwood » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:10 pm

photofly wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:27 am
jakeandelwood wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:17 pm
Many corporately owned planes are private, so I don't think they have operating certificates as they don't carry paying passengers. I've never gotten an operating certificate but I imagine it is no quick and simple task.
All pressurized turbine aircraft with more than six seats and all jet aircraft need an operator’s certificate from Transport Canada even when operated privately. See Part 604.

I did not know that.

Getting the certificate is not the problem, building and maintaining the staffing, maintenance and management structure to meet the requirements of holding a certificate is.
Yes, I can see that for sure.
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by fleet16b » Wed May 01, 2019 10:40 am

Basically, if someone wants to "go for a ride" in your airplane , you can legally ask them to help out with the fuel
From what I understand , you are not allowed to collect revenue as in make a profit .
If it were me I would ask for help with the flight ie if the operating costs to fly my airplane was $100/hr I would ask them to contribute $95/hr . I won't even get started with how ridiculous it is to need to have a CPL in some cases.
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by rookiepilot » Wed May 01, 2019 2:08 pm

fleet16b wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 10:40 am
If it were me I would ask for help with the flight ie if the operating costs to fly my airplane was $100/hr I would ask them to contribute $95/hr . I
I don't think you can do that.
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by fleet16b » Thu May 02, 2019 5:16 am

rookiepilot wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 2:08 pm
fleet16b wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 10:40 am
If it were me I would ask for help with the flight ie if the operating costs to fly my airplane was $100/hr I would ask them to contribute $95/hr .
I don't think you can do that.
Oh ya, why is that ?
No profit has been made
This has been a practice since the beginning of aviation and as far as I know as long as you are operating a ride business and or making a profit , there is no problem suggesting that someone contribute towards fuel . I for one have never seen anyone violated for this.

401.28 (1) The holder of a private pilot licence shall not act as the pilot‑in‑command of an aeroplane or helicopter for hire or reward unless the conditions set out in subsection (2), (3), (4) or (5), as applicable, are met.

(2) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement for costs incurred in respect of a flight if the holder

(a) is the owner or operator of the aircraft;

(b) conducts the flight for purposes other than hire or reward;

(c) carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight; and

(d) receives a reimbursement that

(i) is provided only by the passengers referred to in paragraph (c), and

(ii) is for the purpose of sharing the costs of fuel, oil and fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, as applicable.
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by Schooner69A » Thu May 02, 2019 7:30 am

fleet16b: "Basically, if someone wants to "go for a ride" in your airplane , you can legally ask them to help out with the fuel"

But that would violate "(c) carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight" also mentioned in your post.

Again, many folks smarter than you and I have tried to engage in "Chisel Charters" and they usually find out that you can't make a habit of it... Word gets around and one day you'll find out that somebody from Enforcement will want to have a discussion. AFTER they've talked to your 'passengers', of course...
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Re: Getting paid by client to provide sightseeing in my plane?

Post by rookiepilot » Thu May 02, 2019 7:52 am

I think "asking" -- especially to pay 95% -- routinely can get one in trouble. Offering, might be fine.

I think I read a couple of articles on this. An "equal split" -- more defensible. Also read enforcement considered somewhere doing this to gain hours for the CPL could be considered a benefit, and so a no no.
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