Bonds vs Wages

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Edo
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Bonds vs Wages

Post by Edo »

The 3 page thread on bonds has got me thinking. Nothing in that thread is new.

For this discussion let’s define the terms as follows

BOND: the employee takes out a 2 year loan for 40K company pays back over 24 months

Training AGREEMENT: the company pays training at 40k. The employee agrees to stay 24 months. If the employee leaves early the remainder of agreement is bought out. So at 12 month mark an employee leaving would pay 20k back.

What about jobs that do not require a bond or agreement but offer painfully low wages for 1-2 years ?
The mainline carriers all do this. Starting wages In the range 35 k per year. Year 3 you get a substantial wage increase.

Is this not worse than a bond? Are you not essentially paying for your training?
Assuming you stay into year 3 and get that raise to say 55k haven’t you “lost” 2 years wages at 20 k per year?


Why do we as pilots accept 40 k in reduced wages but not a 40 k training agreement with a respectable wage?
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trey kule
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by trey kule »

Because if we accept the low wages they will let us sit in the pointy end of a big shiny piece of aluminum and wear a uniform...
Though they wont tellyou that MCAS. Means....May Crash Any Second.
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C-GGGQ
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by C-GGGQ »

The training agreements don't usually have great pay associated with the companies either. Low pay no matter how you slice it
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Edo
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by Edo »

True wages could go up

Still doesn’t explain why a pilot will refuse to sign or very reluctantly agree to a training agreement on a king air with a salary of say 60k

Then accept the next job with no agreement at an airline on a Q400 Starting at under 50 k
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Zaibatsu
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by Zaibatsu »

Yah except that most companies that require bonds pay crap to begin with. So you’re looking at a bond plus low pay. Companies often plan salary scales so that by the time the bond is up you’re making enough that you get a pay cut to go to the airlines.
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by C-GGGQ »

I'm ok with training agreements. I'll be signing a 1 year one shortly. Money up front though is a non starter.
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Diadem
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by Diadem »

Edo wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 12:19 pm True wages could go up

Still doesn’t explain why a pilot will refuse to sign or very reluctantly agree to a training agreement on a king air with a salary of say 60k

Then accept the next job with no agreement at an airline on a Q400 Starting at under 50 k
Does the King Air operator provide a pension, or a 9% RRSP match? Do they pay profit share? Do they have travel benefits? Is there an actual schedule, or do they only provide CARs min time free from duty each week and the pilots are on call the rest of the time? Is there any opportunity to earn overtime, or is it salary? There's a lot more that goes into compensation than just dollar amounts.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by goingnowherefast »

Look at the PASCO, Bearskin, Perimeter, Transwest, PAL type companies (704/705lite). Overtime, pensions, fatigue rules, actual days off and reserve rules. All very similar to the regionals. Even FOs are paid better than the regionals. Most have bonds, some of them are nasty while the Q400 FO has a suppressed salary instead. Depending on the companies, could be as much as 30-35% pay cut to go from FO on a Wasaya Dash-8 classic to Jazz FO flying the same plane.
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digits_
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by digits_ »

Edo wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 12:19 pm True wages could go up

Still doesn’t explain why a pilot will refuse to sign or very reluctantly agree to a training agreement on a king air with a salary of say 60k

Then accept the next job with no agreement at an airline on a Q400 Starting at under 50 k
Because you can leave when you want. It's partially psychological, but a big part is very practical as well: want me to fly overweight? Bye! Want me to fake duty times? Bye! Want to dock my pay because I called in fatigue? Bye!

It's very expensive to do that when you are bonded.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by rookiepilot »

digits_ wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 4:07 pm
Because you can leave when you want. It's partially psychological, but a big part is very practical as well: want me to fly overweight? Bye! Want me to fake duty times? Bye! Want to dock my pay because I called in fatigue? Bye!

It's very expensive to do that when you are bonded.
Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not completely buying the "babe in the woods ambushed by horrific employer" bit one reads here so much.

Why do I think maybe not all, but most of those accepting jobs with operators that do this stuff, know precisely what they are getting involved with, because people talk. And they still take the job, thinking they will manage it.

My thoughts are, in the "good" companies, the pilots simply don't easily leave, and openings are harder to come by. So it's wait, or roll the dice and hope something better opens.

Am I close? Totally, utterly guessing, I'll freely admit.

In my industry now, and the one before that, one knew excactly who the slimeballs are, and in exactly what way.

Have a hard time believing it's not common knowledge, the exact same reputations, bad and good, in aviation.
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by digits_ »

rookiepilot wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 4:25 pm
digits_ wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 4:07 pm
Because you can leave when you want. It's partially psychological, but a big part is very practical as well: want me to fly overweight? Bye! Want me to fake duty times? Bye! Want to dock my pay because I called in fatigue? Bye!

It's very expensive to do that when you are bonded.
Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not completely buying the "babe in the woods ambushed by horrific employer" bit one reads here so much.

Why do I think maybe not all, but most of those accepting jobs with operators that do this stuff, know precisely what they are getting involved with, because people talk. And they still take the job, thinking they will manage it.

My thoughts are, in the "good" companies, the pilots simply don't easily leave, and openings are harder to come by. So it's wait, or roll the dice and hope something better opens.

Am I close? Totally, utterly guessing, I'll freely admit.

In my industry now, and the one before that, one knew excactly who the slimeballs are, and in exactly what way.

Have a hard time believing it's not common knowledge, the exact same reputations, bad and good, in aviation.
Yes and no. If you don't want to work for an employer that has negative review, you'll never find a job. Pretty much every employer has people badmouthing them. You've been on AvCanada long enough to have seen that. So yeah, there will be people who take the job, have heard about the bad things, and think that it won't happen to them, or that they will resist the pressure.

But honestly, that shouldn't matter. Just because you know about the bad stuff, doesn't mean you don't have the right to quit if you see it happen.

Your post seem to have a message like "you know they will ask you to do illegal stuff, so suck it up for 2 years, because you agreed to sign a 2 year bond". I don't think that's the right attitude to get rid of operators like that.
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by rookiepilot »

Then TC should be addressing those issues.....if they are illegal.

I'm not saying it's right to have to have to compromise your safety for a job. Sure sometimes it's not an easy situation.

But shouldn't pilots say "I'm just not going to work there"? (If it's that bad). I dunno.
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trey kule
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by trey kule »

Guys, guys, what pressure do you speak of?
There are none.

No more overweight. No more busting minimums, paper whipping, or duty day issues.

All those issues were resolved when TC brought in SMS for small operators.

Absolutely no need tohave any company investigated beyond a review of the paperwork.

Don’t believe me? Ask TC.
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Edo
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by Edo »

digits_ wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 4:07 pm
Edo wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 12:19 pm True wages could go up

Still doesn’t explain why a pilot will refuse to sign or very reluctantly agree to a training agreement on a king air with a salary of say 60k

Then accept the next job with no agreement at an airline on a Q400 Starting at under 50 k
Because you can leave when you want. It's partially psychological, but a big part is very practical as well: want me to fly overweight? Bye! Want me to fake duty times? Bye! Want to dock my pay because I called in fatigue? Bye!

It's very expensive to do that when you are bonded.


Most people don’t leave the majors (or feeders to the majors) in the first 2 years

It would be very interesting to see what happens if a training agreement came in at encore or jazz combined with the current salary
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Edo
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by Edo »

goingnowherefast wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 3:13 pm Look at the PASCO, Bearskin, Perimeter, Transwest, PAL type companies (704/705lite). Overtime, pensions, fatigue rules, actual days off and reserve rules. All very similar to the regionals. Even FOs are paid better than the regionals. Most have bonds, some of them are nasty while the Q400 FO has a suppressed salary instead. Depending on the companies, could be as much as 30-35% pay cut to go from FO on a Wasaya Dash-8 classic to Jazz FO flying the same plane.

That’s what I’m talking about !

Yet somehow it’s more acceptable to take the Jazz position. Most state it’s building seniority for that wide body captain job down the road. Well that’s not offered at Jazz and flow through seems murky at best yet people are willing to wait

Fewer seem willing to wait out a training agreement

Is it because the public doesn’t know who Wasaya is but when you tell someone you are a pilot at Air Canada Jazz or Westjet Encore they think you’ve made it !!

Is it partially ego driven?
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by C-GGGQ »

Unless things have changed drastically recently perimeter starts out at just over 27k. Way lower than jazz/encore/porter. I'm getting more than that for a Navajo.
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trey kule
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by trey kule »

I have stated this so many times.
If your employer asks you to do anything illegal....refuse and document it. Facts, not emotions.
To many pilots try to jump bonds and then pull out the”I was pressured card”. But not a word of it mentioned every before they got their requirements and a call from the major,
Makes it a bid hard in court to fight a bond.
To be clear refusing to fly with a 5 it x wind is not a safety issue. And neither is taking hours and hours more fuel than you will ever need and off loading pax and cargo,
Or.....everything is not always a safety issue
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by digits_ »

trey kule wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 8:19 am I have stated this so many times.
If your employer asks you to do anything illegal....refuse and document it. Facts, not emotions.
To many pilots try to jump bonds and then pull out the”I was pressured card”. But not a word of it mentioned every before they got their requirements and a call from the major,
Makes it a bid hard in court to fight a bond.
Who should the pilot mention it to? His boss that made the request? The SMS system that is being managed by a friend of the boss? TC that won't do anything anyways?

Going to court is always a risk. Documenting unsafe requests might be fairly easy, proving that your information is correct is much harder.

While I don't think it is correct, I don't blame pilots for not speaking up if they have half a yearly salary hanging over their head if they get fired for cause, which is fairly easy for an employer to produce.

Even if you do that, you get fired, you sue your employer and you get your money back, you are now a troublemaker who sued his employer. Good luck finding another aviation job... While it is possible, it makes your life much harder and much more complicated.

Once they have another job lined up, the threat of getting fired disappears and people start to talk.

trey kule wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 8:19 am To be clear refusing to fly with a 5 it x wind is not a safety issue. And neither is taking hours and hours more fuel than you will ever need and off loading pax and cargo,
Or.....everything is not always a safety issue
I don't think anyone is talking about 5 kt crosswinds or taking triple the fuel you need.
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by ehv8oar »

Also its partly the benefits of working at a larger organization. Such as you need a day off, you dont need to feel guilty because the larger organization will have cover instead of the smaller organization having to cancel the flight etc etc

Also people wouldn't have such a problem with bonds if they were appropriate, for example a bond for a PC12 FO should be about $6k reducing over a year. Same for a King Air. Some places have bonds which are totally out of proportion.
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Re: Bonds vs Wages

Post by igorcanuck »

C-GGGQ wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 3:02 pm Unless things have changed drastically recently perimeter starts out at just over 27k. Way lower than jazz/encore/porter. I'm getting more than that for a Navajo.
That's wrong. Perimeter salaries as for JUN/2019 are:

YWG FO metro starts at 29.5k
YTH/YXL FO metro starts at 33.1k
Medevac FO 41.9k
YWG Dash FO 32.3k

YWG Cpt metro 55.7k
YTH/YXL Cpt metro 64.9k
Medevac Cpt metro 95.6k
YWG Dash Cpt 69.6k
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