Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

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twa22
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Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by twa22 » Sat May 04, 2019 8:25 pm

Hello all

I have a general question regarding cruise relief time. I couldn't find much info, other then this link regarding the issuance of a higher license

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... p-1802.htm

The reason I ask is because Cathay Pacific is one of the only airlines in the world I know of that operates with second officers, which from what i've gathered is a cruise relief pilot that isn't actually type rated. SO's can only log P2X time, so I was wondering how that is viewed in Canada? Everything i've read thus far from others is that P2X time is completely useless, but I still don't quite understand why. Does it not even count under total time in Canada? Do airlines not give credit to this P2X time here?

I am waiting for my interview dates for a direct entry SO position with Cathay and I just wanted to gather some more info regarding P2X time.
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by confusedalot » Sat May 04, 2019 9:23 pm

Cathay is not the only airline that uses second officers.

Your very own country uses the very same concept via air Canada.

The AC types are however obligated by the rules to get a type rating, but that rating is limited to a "relief pilot", stamped on your licence as RP. Can't do much with that either in Canada or hong Kong.

HOWEVER, you will be in the Cathay system. Which means that you have automatic access to FO and eventually Captain

Play the game. Takes some time, but you will get there.
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twa22
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by twa22 » Sat May 04, 2019 11:03 pm

confusedalot wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 9:23 pm
Cathay is not the only airline that uses second officers.

Your very own country uses the very same concept via air Canada.

The AC types are however obligated by the rules to get a type rating, but that rating is limited to a "relief pilot", stamped on your licence as RP. Can't do much with that either in Canada or hong Kong.

HOWEVER, you will be in the Cathay system. Which means that you have automatic access to FO and eventually Captain

Play the game. Takes some time, but you will get there.
I thought AC relief pilots are fully type rated FOs who only act as RPs... So one who decides to bid for an RP spot at AC actually gets a type rating, works as an RP but is qualified as full fledged FO, versus at Cathay, an SO cannot act as an FO due to the relief rating only. That's how I've been lead to understand... In either case it doesn't really matter, was just curious about how the world views this P2X time, IF one were to not ever fly as an FO at Cathay for whatever reason
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by Snowgoose » Sun May 05, 2019 4:56 am

^ What he said. Recurrent sims are RP only (eval above 10,000") though, initial one is full type rating at AC. Log the hours, not the take-off and landings.
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by Sharklasers » Sun May 05, 2019 6:00 am

Snowgoose wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 4:56 am
^ What he said. Recurrent sims are RP only (eval above 10,000") though, initial one is full type rating at AC. Log the hours, not the take-off and landings.
Your info is out of date. Starting ~2 years ago AC stopped give full type ratings for RP positions. They now get a 'short course' on the 777 or 787.
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by jpilot77 » Sun May 05, 2019 9:55 am

Nope your info is out of date Sharklasers AC did go the short course route for about a year in 2016-17 but went back to the full course when Murray became VP of flight ops.
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by altiplano » Sun May 05, 2019 12:16 pm

Who's "Murray"?

Is he like your neighbour or something? Does he come over with "Calin" for bbq and beer on the weekend?

Mr. Strom is senior management, not our friend on a first name basis... unless he's your neighbour or something from the past, but even then when related to work he's not doing us any favours leading me to consider him as my friend... Things he is fixing, training, shortage, etc. are for the corporation, not us.

But maybe that's just me...
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by jpilot77 » Sun May 05, 2019 1:21 pm

I couldn’t remember if Strom had 1 or 2 Ms in his last name so I went with just Murray...
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by Sharklasers » Sun May 05, 2019 3:37 pm

jpilot77 wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:55 am
Nope your info is out of date Sharklasers AC did go the short course route for about a year in 2016-17 but went back to the full course when Murray became VP of flight ops.
Apologies then,
I obviously haven't been keeping abreast of what's happening on the widebody side.
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by Snowgoose » Wed May 08, 2019 5:06 am

altiplano wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 12:16 pm
Who's "Murray"?

Is he like your neighbour or something? Does he come over with "Calin" for bbq and beer on the weekend?

Mr. Strom is senior management, not our friend on a first name basis... unless he's your neighbour or something from the past, but even then when related to work he's not doing us any favours leading me to consider him as my friend... Things he is fixing, training, shortage, etc. are for the corporation, not us.

But maybe that's just me...
Yep, it's just you.
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by altiplano » Wed May 08, 2019 6:37 am

Lol... If it makes you feel good...

Go culture change!?
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by Shinyjetsyndrome » Sun May 12, 2019 4:36 pm

@twa22 off topic, but how long have you been waiting for an interview date at CX? I’m sitting at a month and a half after submitting all the documents they wanted in the initial invitation. I followed up by email to see if maybe they were still waiting for something, but that isn’t the case. :?
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by twa22 » Tue May 14, 2019 7:36 am

Shinyjetsyndrome wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 4:36 pm
@twa22 off topic, but how long have you been waiting for an interview date at CX? I’m sitting at a month and a half after submitting all the documents they wanted in the initial invitation. I followed up by email to see if maybe they were still waiting for something, but that isn’t the case. :?
No worries. I'm in the exact same boat, been waiting for a month and a half since I got confirmation I will be invited to an interview... guess they're really backed up
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by leftoftrack » Tue May 14, 2019 7:57 am

I am also backed uo
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by Speedalive » Tue May 14, 2019 7:44 pm

Ok good to know. Glad it's not just me!
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by Skykiwi » Wed May 15, 2019 1:18 pm

They are not backed up - just figuring out how low to set the bar.

The P2X rating at Cathay allows you to sit at the controls above 20,000ft. 80% of the time you are PM and only making radio calls, keeping the log etc. (Not that twirling the heading bug or pushing the alt select button is any bigger of a thrill). The time is only logable while you are in the seat (this is generally less than half the flight - last week on the flight to YVR the SO managed to get a whole 20 mins). My understanding is that P2X time does not translate to anything meaningful back in the real world. You do get lots of sim time though - that is a bonus.

Those thinking of joining CX with hopes and dreams - do you homework. What you read on the forums (PPrune etc) is a good indication of the atmosphere at CX. Not a lot of happy campers. The new Conditions of Service are deplorable.
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by twa22 » Thu May 16, 2019 10:10 am

Skykiwi wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:18 pm
They are not backed up - just figuring out how low to set the bar.

The P2X rating at Cathay allows you to sit at the controls above 20,000ft. 80% of the time you are PM and only making radio calls, keeping the log etc. (Not that twirling the heading bug or pushing the alt select button is any bigger of a thrill). The time is only logable while you are in the seat (this is generally less than half the flight - last week on the flight to YVR the SO managed to get a whole 20 mins). My understanding is that P2X time does not translate to anything meaningful back in the real world. You do get lots of sim time though - that is a bonus.

Those thinking of joining CX with hopes and dreams - do you homework. What you read on the forums (PPrune etc) is a good indication of the atmosphere at CX. Not a lot of happy campers. The new Conditions of Service are deplorable.
I have read all the threads and posts there are to read about CX on pprune and it's all doom and gloom... however I have also spoken to many others outside of the forums, current and former CX pilots who weren't as negative about the company, so personally, i'm going to remain neutral at this point, however; I do believe that for a ~250 hour who is in his/her early to mid 20's, CX can be a good opportunity, even if it's around a 5 year upgrade time to JFO, where then hours will count for something if P2X really means absolutely nothing to Canadian carries, or the rest of the world.

I know there's more to it then what I just wrote above and so many other factors to consider, but I like to at least try and look at the positive side of things...
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by Skykiwi » Thu May 16, 2019 11:06 am

Good luck with the optimism. It won't take long to change that.
Since you have done the research, you have no excuse once you join to complain about your lot - remember that. Read COS18 carefully.

(Chatting with former CX pilots will not give you any indication of what it is like right now - the glory days are long gone).
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by twa22 » Thu May 16, 2019 11:32 am

Skykiwi wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 11:06 am
Good luck with the optimism. It won't take long to change that.
Since you have done the research, you have no excuse once you join to complain about your lot - remember that. Read COS18 carefully.

(Chatting with former CX pilots will not give you any indication of what it is like right now - the glory days are long gone).
I have looked over cos18 and to me it doesn't look that bad but I have nothing to compare it too... I would need the old ones for reference before I could make a decision on how bad the latest contract is.

Look without optimism, I might aswell say every airline is doom and gloom as it's pretty much corporate greed anywhere you go, I have heard enough complaints about Canadian carriers aswell, so...
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by jpilot77 » Thu May 16, 2019 2:44 pm

I’d listen to what Skykiwi is saying about CX. Just look at the amount of guys leaving CX for AC recently taking a huge pay cut some after 10 years. Also guys going to CX now better be prepared to live in Hong Kong for the rest of your career. If you have 250 hours go have fun flying an aircraft. You’ll have plenty of time to be sitting at 370 reading the paper drinking your coffee.
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by jt8d » Thu May 16, 2019 5:13 pm

Yeah it's a great idea if you don't mind being an indentured servant to CrapPay Pacific. The T&C at Cathay are absolute sh!te. You log some made-up useless P2X hours for years before you get to go right seat on a 777 with minimal real flying skills. Don't sell your career short bud. If you are canadian, in your 20s and have 250TT, there's lots of jobs to be had within Canada. If you're looking at going overseas for adventure then get your first 1000 hours and head to Africa... or look at Susi Air Indonesia. Cathay is merely for global pilots who don't have any local opportunities. As a canadian, there's no shortage if you're persistent. HK for the rest of your career... ughhh.. WHY?? What a waste of a perfectly good career you could make back home.
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by Skykiwi » Thu May 16, 2019 8:49 pm

I have looked over cos18 and to me it doesn't look that bad but I have nothing to compare it too
twa22. Since you have nothing to compare this to. Trust me on this ... it is crap. Like I said, read it carefully. The company has purposely worded it in a way that gives them the ability to change your conditions at their leisure. There are no real labour laws in Hong Kong so you have no recourse if you get shafted on something. And trust me on this - you will be shafted. Take the advise of jt8d and ipilot77 - go and get some real time, have fun. learn and live for why you wanted to be a pilot in the first place. Sitting at high FL's for the next 35 years or more will destroy your soul. I know it sounds really cool etc to be with a large airline, flying large aircraft but I have to say I'm so glad I spent the first 8000 of my hours bombing around the lower levels. I don't think you will find a high time pilot who doesn't agree. Your job will come - don't rush in and ruin your career by joining this mob (CX).
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by Shinyjetsyndrome » Fri May 17, 2019 6:03 am

EDIT: Never mind.. The contract has a minimum pay and pilot allowance which is what is advertised, so disregard!
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Last edited by Shinyjetsyndrome on Fri May 17, 2019 8:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by twa22 » Fri May 17, 2019 7:43 am

jt8d wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 5:13 pm
Yeah it's a great idea if you don't mind being an indentured servant to CrapPay Pacific. The T&C at Cathay are absolute sh!te. You log some made-up useless P2X hours for years before you get to go right seat on a 777 with minimal real flying skills. Don't sell your career short bud. If you are canadian, in your 20s and have 250TT, there's lots of jobs to be had within Canada. If you're looking at going overseas for adventure then get your first 1000 hours and head to Africa... or look at Susi Air Indonesia. Cathay is merely for global pilots who don't have any local opportunities. As a canadian, there's no shortage if you're persistent. HK for the rest of your career... ughhh.. WHY?? What a waste of a perfectly good career you could make back home.
Believe me, I have been trying for a long time to get a job in Canada... I have had some interviews but nothing has panned out and I have dealt with a lot of unprofessional people who made promises and then just never bothered getting back to me. I have also attempted going down the working the ramp route, with lots of broken promises so I said screw that, never again. I don't know what i've done wrong or i'm doing wrong, but at this point I have lost any sort of hope on landing a flying job in Canada with the hours I have. I know that there are many 250 hour pilots getting flying jobs right away, and I even know some, but for me it clearly hasn't worked out up to this point... so as bad as CX sounds, it sure does seem good from the outside.

Please don't take it the wrong way, I have nothing against flying in Canada, it's just that literally nothing has worked. Like I said, I have no idea what i've been doing wrong or if I simply just have really bad luck, but i'm very demoralized by the industry here... I have however started my instructor rating while I wait for CX, because at this point this seems like the only real opportunity (for me) to get going at this point
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Re: Logging cruise relief time outside of Canada

Post by Shinyjetsyndrome » Fri May 17, 2019 9:23 am

jt8d wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 5:13 pm
The T&C at Cathay are absolute sh!te.
You make more as a Cathay year 1 SO than a year 1-4 AC FO on flat pay (min guarantee ~$93k/year CAD) and this is on the CX D scale or COS18. Rent is higher but you’ll still be better off. If anything, we're fighting for better wages in Canada by leaving the country. Sure, it might get a bit boring sitting up front during cruise only, but for someone who wants to travel and see the world, this deal is amazing, especially for a 250 hour pilot! Personally, I'd much rather spend my layovers in Barcelona or Sydney than Kugluktuk! Not a wasteful career in my opinion, but a rather successful one.
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