Retirement age.

[laserstrike]

As I understand your argument laser, you feel that the over 60s should give up their jobs....so you and those like you can get to bigger checks faster. Is that about right?

What entitles you more to the higher wage than the pilot you want to put out to pasture? Other than you want their job. That seems to me to be afairly clear piece of entitled greed.

It would be interesting to get your perspective again when you hit 60. But of course you will just step out of the way and retire.

I have no intention to work until 65.

[C.W.E.]

Commercially with lives at risk? 70. Provided you are held to strict fitness standards.

I hold an ATPL and a valid Class 1 medical.

Does that meet the fitness standards laserstrike?

I have no intention to work until 65.

What does that have to do with the rest of us?

[Old fella]

Then you old guys better not complain anymore about how young people are lazy and don't want to work. It's a lot harder to work when people keep working into their 70s and occupying jobs that used to open up when employees hit 65.

In my experience being retired for some years, I can honestly say I can think of very very few that I am acquainted with who stayed working with fully paid up pensions because they loved their job. The vast majority want out if they can see themselves clear with decent income, honestly we tire of the working shit, seen and heard it all. It is out of necessity the working stiffs stay for all sorts of reasons that I am sure we all know. No, I am not of the view the much younger generation(s) are lazy and not interested in working, ambitious yes maybe in cases to much so, they want that left-seat airline job like today. Finally the younger just starting demographic is a hell of a lot smaller than it was in my starting times in ‘70s. Jobs will be there for them despite old fools my age(70)who still want their airline seats( shudder, shudder).

[laserstrike]

Then you old guys better not complain anymore about how young people are lazy and don't want to work. It's a lot harder to work when people keep working into their 70s and occupying jobs that used to open up when employees hit 65.

In my experience being retired for some years, I can honestly say I can think of very very few that I am acquainted with who stayed working with fully paid up pensions because they loved their job. The vast majority want out if they can see themselves clear with decent income, honestly we tire of the working shit, seen and heard it all. It is out of necessity the working stiffs stay for all sorts of reasons that I am sure we all know. No, I am not of the view the much younger generation(s) are lazy and not interested in working, ambitious yes maybe in cases to much so, they want that left-seat airline job like today. Finally the younger just starting demographic is a hell of a lot smaller than it was in my starting times in ‘70s. Jobs will be there for them despite old fools my age(70)who still want their airline seats( shudder, shudder).

To be fair I personally want to just see progression. I don't want a left seat right now or in the next few years. But there are many people above me who do and by them moving on it creates movement though the whole list and improves the lives of everyone.

[C.W.E.]

There are many other types of flying besides flying for an airline in fact for some of us these jobs are more desirable.

Do you think there should be an age limit for us laserstrike?

This comment by you puts me in the category where I should not be allowed to fly for pay anymore.

Commercially with lives at risk? 70. Provided you are held to strict fitness standards.

I would like to know how you can make such a statement, care to explain your thought process?

[laserstrike]

There are many other types of flying besides flying for an airline in fact for some of us these jobs are more desirable.

Do you think there should be an age limit for us laserstrike?

This comment by you puts me in the category where I should not be allowed to fly for pay anymore.

Commercially with lives at risk? 70. Provided you are held to strict fitness standards.

I would like to know how you can make such a statement, care to explain your thought process?

Yes. Older folks have a higher chance of things like strokes and heart attacks. Even perfectly healthy individuals. If you are flying yourself around, no problem. Well... Other than people on the ground.

[Diadem]

The generations prior to the Baby Boomers tended to retire (or die) before reaching 65, thereby opening jobs to younger workers. Air Canada used to mandate retirements at 60, thus opening positions for younger pilots. Baby Boomers are clinging to their jobs longer and longer, as demonstrated by the fly-past-60 pilots, meaning that those of us coming after are going to have to work longer and harder to be able to retire at all; I don't want to work past 60, but I might have to because the high-paying opportunities are still full.
Here's an example: a pilot born in 1950 joined AC in 1980 at age 30. At the time, the retirement age was 60, so realistically (s)he could expect to work there for thirty years and retire in 2010, and (s)he could advance as those higher on the seniority list retired at 60. Instead, (s)he sued to keep working and keep occupying a seat for five years longer than every previous generation. In the meantime, a pilot hoping to join AC in 2010 at age 30 would have to wait another five years for that position to open, and would have to work until 65 to earn as much during his/her time at AC as all those previous generations that were able to retire at 60. If everyone ahead of you retired at the same age and allowed you to advance, but you've kept working, you're depriving younger workers of opportunities that you had and forcing them to work longer than they want.
Baby boomers are holding onto jobs a lot longer than previous generations: https://www.citylab.com/life/2014/06/ar ... bs/372652/ Part of it is living longer, and part is absolutely abysmal financial planning that has left many without the option to retire, but the latter shouldn't be a factor for a pilot making hundreds of thousands a year. That's just greed. From the article:

The average retirement age is now 62—five years older than it was two decades ago.

That's five years of younger workers left unable to climb the ladder so they can start to make decent wages. In the meantime, they're left in menial positions earning low incomes for far longer than previous generations as they wait for positions in the fields in which they trained to open. Those under forty are spending far more on education, making less money, and spending more on housing than their parents and grandparents, and might never be able to save enough to retire. All so some boomers can make another million...

[rookiepilot]

Every man (woman) -- and generation for themselves.

You ain't seen nothing yet, I think, in this regard.

This won't be popular to hear, but the retirement system is slowly bankrupting.

[C.W.E.]

Yes. Older folks have a higher chance of things like strokes and heart attacks. Even perfectly healthy individuals. If you are flying yourself around, no problem. Well... Other than people on the ground.

So my ATPL is no longer valid in your opinion?

Should I quit driving my car as well, using your thought process I could kill a lot of people if I have a stroke driving in my car.

I was seriously thinking of doing some flight training in my J3 Cub teaching the basics of flying to licensed pilots, do you think that that I could do that for pay?

Or due to my age I might not remember how to teach?

[laserstrike]

The generations prior to the Baby Boomers tended to retire (or die) before reaching 65, thereby opening jobs to younger workers. Air Canada used to mandate retirements at 60, thus opening positions for younger pilots. Baby Boomers are clinging to their jobs longer and longer, as demonstrated by the fly-past-60 pilots, meaning that those of us coming after are going to have to work longer and harder to be able to retire at all; I don't want to work past 60, but I might have to because the high-paying opportunities are still full.
Here's an example: a pilot born in 1950 joined AC in 1980 at age 30. At the time, the retirement age was 60, so realistically (s)he could expect to work there for thirty years and retire in 2010, and (s)he could advance as those higher on the seniority list retired at 60. Instead, (s)he sued to keep working and keep occupying a seat for five years longer than every previous generation. In the meantime, a pilot hoping to join AC in 2010 at age 30 would have to wait another five years for that position to open, and would have to work until 65 to earn as much during his/her time at AC as all those previous generations that were able to retire at 60. If everyone ahead of you retired at the same age and allowed you to advance, but you've kept working, you're depriving younger workers of opportunities that you had and forcing them to work longer than they want.
Baby boomers are holding onto jobs a lot longer than previous generations: https://www.citylab.com/life/2014/06/ar ... bs/372652/ Part of it is living longer, and part is absolutely abysmal financial planning that has left many without the option to retire, but the latter shouldn't be a factor for a pilot making hundreds of thousands a year. That's just greed. From the article:

The average retirement age is now 62—five years older than it was two decades ago.

That's five years of younger workers left unable to climb the ladder so they can start to make decent wages. In the meantime, they're left in menial positions earning low incomes for far longer than previous generations as they wait for positions in the fields in which they trained to open. Those under forty are spending far more on education, making less money, and spending more on housing than their parents and grandparents, and might never be able to save enough to retire. All so some boomers can make another million...

And it's not just aviation.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

If you are not satisfied with your life, look at yourself and stop blaming others for holding up your progression.
This thread reeks of millennial self entitlement.

[laserstrike]

If you are not satisfied with your life, look at yourself and stop blaming others for holding up your progression.
This thread reeks of millennial self entitlement.

1) I'm not a millennial.

2) I love how everyone is so quick to assume I'm a millennial, yet completely ignores the self entitlement of the boomers and the fly to 65 group.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

I never said you were a millennial. Just that the attitude of wanting everyone to help your life improve is a stereotypical characteristic of said group.

[laserstrike]

Whatever you say.

[Diadem]

If you are not satisfied with your life, look at yourself and stop blaming others for holding up your progression.
This thread reeks of millennial self entitlement.

I don't expect anyone to help me, and where I am in my career is a result of the decisions that I've made. But when Boomers refuse to retire and then turn around and complain about how their kids aren't working hard enough to make as much money as they did at the same age, it pisses me off. Boomers are upset that their kids live at home well into their twenties and can't afford mortgages in their thirties, and I constantly hear remarks about how men aren't men anymore because their wives have to work; both spouses have to work because wages have stagnated for younger workers and housing is completely unaffordable. Boomers have caused a huge problem for Gen Xs, Millenials, and Gen Zs, and then bitch and complain about how everyone younger than themselves is lazy and incompetent.

[laserstrike]

If you are not satisfied with your life, look at yourself and stop blaming others for holding up your progression.
This thread reeks of millennial self entitlement.

I don't expect anyone to help me, and where I am in my career is a result of the decisions that I've made. But when Boomers refuse to retire and then turn around and complain about how their kids aren't working hard enough to make as much money as they did at the same age, it pisses me off. Boomers are upset that their kids live at home well into their twenties and can't afford mortgages in their thirties, and I constantly hear remarks about how men aren't men anymore because their wives have to work; both spouses have to work because wages have stagnated for younger workers and housing is completely unaffordable. Boomers have caused a huge problem for Gen Xs, Millenials, and Gen Zs, and then bitch and complain about how everyone younger than themselves is lazy and incompetent.

The problem is they can't hear you complain about them over the noise from their boat, motorcycle, Corvette etc. Also they are probably in the man cave downstairs in their 4000sq foot house they live in with just the wife and can't hear you cause you're too far away in your one bedroom apartment in the suburbs that your share with your wife and two screaming kids.

[rookiepilot]

[ Boomers have caused a huge problem for Gen Xs, Millenials, and Gen Zs, and then bitch and complain about how everyone younger than themselves is lazy and incompetent.

There is some justification for this, I'll give one example of Boomer entitlement (And I just missed being born as one by my age)

Gov't here several years ago started tightening mortgage regulations for a number of sensible reasons, to calm the housing market down.
Followed then by restrictions on foreign ownership and empty houses.

They didn't want a US style bubble;
They wanted to keep a lid on Canadian's debt loads,
They wanted to ensure -- or try -- that the younger generation could afford a house one day,
Lastly, they (CMHC) -- didn't want taxpayers to be on the hook for mortgage losses. All very sensible.

And now that it's biting a little in Toronto and especially Vancouver, I can hear the screaming from here. Boomers screaming "You're wrecking my retirement" -- with their million dollar equity in their homes.

Guess what Boomers? You don't have the right to a perpetually rising housing market, an investment without any risk, so that you can dump your 2 million property on some sap and retire to the island. It's not all about you.

The "most self absorbed generation in history" I think is very well named.

[Squaretail]

I get where laser strike is coming from, though his blame is misplaced. It’s not uncommon to find what seem like decent jobs, but then to realize there is no growth, and no way to progress. He won’t be the first to have the myth debunked that all you need to do to get ahead is keep your head down, work hard and the capitalist system will reward you if you out compete your fellows. The problem isn’t with old guys holding their jobs, it’s with working for companies that have no growth and are often poorly managed. As a worker you just have to move on and be more careful to where you hitch your wagon. Look out for number one. Gone are the days of my father and grandfather who could expect to work the same job their entire working lives.

Personally, I get more irritated with the short sighted management I often see, who don’t get that they can’t keep guys who bust their butt at the bottom of the totem pole on starting wage for their entire tenure, then bitch when the “millennials” leave. Good help is hard to find, so give the fuckers a raise once in a while. Throw the poor bastards a bone. Training new people costs always more than retaining people.

[rookiepilot]

I get where laser strike is coming from, though his blame is misplaced. It’s not uncommon to find what seem like decent jobs, but then to realize there is no growth, and no way to progress. He won’t be the first to have the myth debunked that all you need to do to get ahead is keep your head down, work hard and the capitalist system will reward you if you out compete your fellows. The problem isn’t with old guys holding their jobs, it’s with working for companies that have no growth and are often poorly managed. As a worker you just have to move on and be more careful to where you hitch your wagon. Look out for number one. Gone are the days of my father and grandfather who could expect to work the same job their entire working lives.

Personally, I get more irritated with the short sighted management I often see, who don’t get that they can’t keep guys who bust their butt at the bottom of the totem pole on starting wage for their entire tenure, then bitch when the “millennials” leave. Good help is hard to find, so give the fuckers a raise once in a while. Throw the poor bastards a bone. Training new people costs always more than retaining people.

Why don't you start a company Squaretail?

Show us how easy it is. When I couldn't get paid enough as an employee, that's exactly what I did.

I don't meet many others willing to do the same. Cause it's really hard.

[Fanblade]

If you are not satisfied with your life, look at yourself and stop blaming others for holding up your progression.
This thread reeks of millennial self entitlement.

Why does it reek of millennial self entitlement? As a boomer myself what I read are well thought out arguments about how generational changes are impacting them. Discarding their issues as entitled? Diadem’s reference of a study was nothing but fact driven.

Besides IF the generation has entitlement issues? I personally refuse labels like that. But IF true, maybe we should take a look at how they were raised. A couple of bad apples is one thing, but if you really believe it is a whole generation, it is the parents that need a spotlight on them.

I have 3 millennial children. Not one of them wth an entitlement attitude or lazy. Of course if I saw it I would beat it out of them. I work with many millennials. No issues. I think what we have is a larger number of rich spoiled kids than usual, because of the Boomer parents wealth. And you know what. Those spoiled rich kids will get hammered in the real world. What their parents didn’t teach them lovingly, society will teach without empathy.

Let’s face it we are a huge generation. A lot like an economic bull in a china shop. Anything we want we put so much demand and stress on that prices skyrocket. (Housing, old age homes) When we are done? They collapse. Notices how many golf courses are no longer profitable and closing as Boomers become too arthritic to play. Not yours or my individual fault. But as a generation it is a fact.

Housing is next. It will take time but it will happen. My house is only worth what someone coming up behind me can afford to pay. There is no way around this fact. If too many of the younger generation have their lifetime salary decreased by a late start in their career. They won’t be able to pay today’s prices. Again this isn’t tomorrow and will take a while to unwind. However I suggest we Boomers, particularly trailing ones like me, plan accordingly. Don’t count on your house value for retirement unless you have already cashed out.

Diadem,

Not everyone in my generation is financially irresponsible. Just like every other generation some have used credit wisely, others haven’t. It’s true my generation saw a large increase in accessibility to credit that had previously not existed. Some were not prepared to manage it wisely and dug themselves some pretty deep holes. But I also think that situation is increasing with every successive generation. My grandfather for example never used credit for anything but a house, and even that was limited to 3X his yearly income. Not a penny more. To be clear I frown very hard on irresponsible financial planning and I don’t think the next generation should be saddled with someone else’s failure to plan. But as we know it is happening simply because, once again Boomers are a financial bull in a china shop. Those of us that were irresponsible ( really only a fraction) are too large a group to put on government assistance so retirement needed to be abolished. But don’t paint us all with the same brush. And again I don’t think this is something that is just my generation. It’s an inter generational trend rolling in the wrong direction.