More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

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More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by North Shore » Thu May 30, 2019 8:53 am

https://nationalpost.com/news/in-pursui ... -in-canada
A Swedish aerospace firm that hopes to supply Canada’s new fleet of fighter jets says it could build the aircraft in this country, making maximum use of the expertise of domestic firms and creating high-tech jobs.

Saab’s pitch to build its Gripen E fighter jet in Canada further ups the ante on the $19-billion competition that will see the federal government purchase 88 new aircraft.
Comments from those 'in the know'? AuxBatOn? Rockie?
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Thu May 30, 2019 10:01 am

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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by igorcanuck » Thu May 30, 2019 10:11 am

Brazil bought some Gripen with the same conditions. They will be built in Brazil and they will share technology with Embraer and other companies down there. Seems a good deal.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... rs-406213/
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by AuxBatOn » Thu May 30, 2019 10:43 am

Good deal for industry. Horrible deal for our fighter force...
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by laserstrike » Thu May 30, 2019 3:44 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 10:43 am
Good deal for industry. Horrible deal for our fighter force...
Explain.
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by jpilot77 » Thu May 30, 2019 4:02 pm

The Saab is a 4th generation fighter while the F-35 is a 5th generation fighter.
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by AuxBatOn » Thu May 30, 2019 5:46 pm

laserstrike wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 3:44 pm
AuxBatOn wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 10:43 am
Good deal for industry. Horrible deal for our fighter force...
Explain.
Buying something that has pretty much the same capabilities as we have now isn't something that will last us (in a meaningful way) for the next 40-50 years. It is a fourth gen aircraft with no advance in capabilities. No sensor fusion, no LO, shitty payload (even compared to the Hornet).
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by laserstrike » Thu May 30, 2019 6:14 pm

Gotcha.
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Thu May 30, 2019 6:18 pm

I feel like this is a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Canada has just hot potatoed the fack out of this and we're now at a junction where the vast majority of options are now becoming obsolete, and the only 'good' option is a political landmine.

Ohhhhh Canada....🇨🇦

Still love this country, but its like a good wife, just drives ya into the nut house from time to time, but ya still love her to bits.

S.
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by ehv8oar » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:01 am

In my opinion the best aircraft choice for Canada has got to be either the Typhoon or resurrecting the cancelled F15 Silent Eagle.
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by Heliian » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:38 am

AuxBatOn wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 5:46 pm
laserstrike wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 3:44 pm
AuxBatOn wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 10:43 am
Good deal for industry. Horrible deal for our fighter force...
Explain.
Buying something that has pretty much the same capabilities as we have now isn't something that will last us (in a meaningful way) for the next 40-50 years. It is a fourth gen aircraft with no advance in capabilities. No sensor fusion, no LO, shitty payload (even compared to the Hornet).
We should just let NATO dictate what we buy, maybe cut back the lifespan to 30 years, try to save some money. Why would we need to keep them 40 to 50 years. The future is rpas anyway.

You can be damn sure that regardless of what Canada buys, it will be the wrong choice in someone's eyes.

Just stop wasting money on competitions and procurement and pull the trigger already.
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by Old fella » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:00 am

FFS here we go, another multi layered thread on this issue from no doubt the same common-taters.
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by Heliian » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:15 am

Old fella wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:00 am
FFS here we go, another multi layered thread on this issue from no doubt the same common-taters.
Well, it's a complex issue isn't it?

Your own comment does literally nothing to help advance the discussion. To top it off you insult everyone. You sir, are the problem.
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by Old fella » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:05 pm

Heliian wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:15 am
Old fella wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:00 am
FFS here we go, another multi layered thread on this issue from no doubt the same common-taters.
Well, it's a complex issue isn't it?

Your own comment does literally nothing to help advance the discussion. To top it off you insult everyone. You sir, are the problem.
Ad Nauseam......... yawn :roll:
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by Jet Jockey » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:12 pm

What Canada really needs but unfortunately cannot afford and is out of production at this time is the F22 Raptor.
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by ehv8oar » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:43 pm

The Typhoon is capable of seeing off 99% of the threats Canada would face, from the obvious country likely to threaten its airspace.

With Kuwaits order for the Typhoon including AESA radar a Canadian order for the same type of aircraft would give a lot of bang for the buck.
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by AuxBatOn » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:48 pm

There is no growth possibilities with the Typhoon. It wouldn't last us until 2070. And at 90M Pounds (that' CA$153M!!!) it's hardly a good bang for the buck... Kuwait's needs are much different than ours... I wonder why most countries are buying F-35s 🤷‍♂️.
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by pelmet » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:59 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:48 pm
There is no growth possibilities with the Typhoon. It wouldn't last us until 2070. And at 90M Pounds (that' CA$153M!!!) it's hardly a good bang for the buck... Kuwait's needs are much different than ours... I wonder why most countries are buying F-35s 🤷‍♂️.
OK, how about the Rafale?
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by AuxBatOn » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:04 pm

It's not a contender anymore (and it's also CA$141M a piece..)

As a comparison, the F-35A is CA$103M a piece.
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:17 am

Just need a second engine for those high arctic intercepts. Long way for the SAR guys to go when the single engine stumbles in the arctic.

The modern jet engine is fantastic, but will never be 100% reliable.

Are the F35's capabilities great enough that it is worth the eventual loss of an airframe (hopefully not the pilot) due to a simple engine issue? It's a complex problem since these planes are supposed to go into harm's way. An engine issue will claim one or two airframes before 2070, so are it's abilities on the battlefield able to offset that?
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:32 am

AuxBatOn wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:48 pm
There is no growth possibilities with the Typhoon. It wouldn't last us until 2070. And at 90M Pounds (that' CA$153M!!!) it's hardly a good bang for the buck... Kuwait's needs are much different than ours... I wonder why most countries are buying F-35s 🤷‍♂️.
Are there any other 5th gen fighters that make sense for us to look at, or are we cornered with a single engine U.S stealth fighter?

It seems every direction this conversation goes we end up 4th vs 5th gen and some very unreasonable 50 year life span where I feel a 5th gen will be as obsolete as the 4th well within that time frame. All it takes is some world crisis that pulls the sides together to shell out the war reserves and we'll be quickly ushering in 6th or 7th gen fighters. I'm making up gen numbers here, but I'm imagining the differences in tech between WW1 and the Korean war.

Extending an olive branch, yes 5th gen over 4th gen for 50 years is absolutely the smarter choice, BUT would it be worth cutting the service life by over half, and finding a deal on a new 4th gen airframe that gets us another 20 years max, while in the meantime waiting out the 6th gen developments?

S.
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by YYZSaabGuy » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:14 am

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:32 am
AuxBatOn wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:48 pm
There is no growth possibilities with the Typhoon. It wouldn't last us until 2070. And at 90M Pounds (that' CA$153M!!!) it's hardly a good bang for the buck... Kuwait's needs are much different than ours... I wonder why most countries are buying F-35s 🤷‍♂️.
Are there any other 5th gen fighters that make sense for us to look at, or are we cornered with a single engine U.S stealth fighter?

It seems every direction this conversation goes we end up 4th vs 5th gen and some very unreasonable 50 year life span where I feel a 5th gen will be as obsolete as the 4th well within that time frame. All it takes is some world crisis that pulls the sides together to shell out the war reserves and we'll be quickly ushering in 6th or 7th gen fighters. I'm making up gen numbers here, but I'm imagining the differences in tech between WW1 and the Korean war.

Extending an olive branch, yes 5th gen over 4th gen for 50 years is absolutely the smarter choice, BUT would it be worth cutting the service life by over half, and finding a deal on a new 4th gen airframe that gets us another 20 years max, while in the meantime waiting out the 6th gen developments?

S.
I'm don't have an answer to your question, but it's a good one and I'm looking forward to an informed response from one of the multiple posters here with more insight.

In the meantime, I can confirm with a high level of confidence that if we were to acquire a 4th gen/20-year solution today, then we should absolutely plan to start the procurement process for its replacement tomorrow, because 20+ years is roughly how long it'll take to make a decision and get the fleet built and delivered. There is nobody that does defence procurement better than us. :rolleyes:
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by pelmet » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:21 am

AuxBatOn wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:04 pm
It's not a contender anymore (and it's also CA$141M a piece..)

As a comparison, the F-35A is CA$103M a piece.
Thanks for the info. But.........how much more does it cost to maintain the F-35. I hear that it is extremely expensive. Perhaps whatever is saved on purchase price(the French might be willing to negotiate anyways) will be lost over the first 10 years of operation(and we will have it for 50 years).
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by TSAM » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:59 am

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:32 am

Are there any other 5th gen fighters that make sense for us to look at, or are we cornered with a single engine U.S stealth fighter?
SU-57 8)
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by frosti » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:13 am

Despite all the local fanboyism, the eventual winner will be the F-35 unless it loses by some political interference. It blows the competition out the water in every aspect.

There are a dozen threads in this section discussing this very thing, try searching before you re-hash the same argument over and over.
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