New TC Cannabis rules

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garfield
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by garfield »

Well Voyageur's gonna get a ton of resume!
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Mr. North
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by Mr. North »

Let's broaden our perspectives here for a moment and consider what's actually happening.

We're less than a year into legalisation and TC has gone from zero tolerance (medical revoked & licence suspended), to 28 days.

That's a remarkable change of stance. I find it interesting to watch TC (among other authorities) tackle this issue, trying to find a balance between effective regulation that protects public safety while limiting their own financial and legal liability. The 28 day buffer is a marginal improvement in the right direction. In reality however it's just as untenable as the zero tolerance policy it replaced and should be revisited in the future with a degree of practical sense that can only be applied once cannabis has become better understood.

Forgetting for a moment one's personal responsibilities, let's consider the amount of cannabis smoke one encounters on a professional basis. Waiting for the shuttle by smokers row, in and around hotels and restaurants on layovers, hell even the SkyTrain station can be 600 RVR at times - hard not to get a good waft then. So do I just book off for a month each time? Or do I hold my breath and risk my professional liability?

These regulations protect TC and your employer, they do nothing to protect YOU the pilot.
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7ECA
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by 7ECA »

Mr. North wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:29 pm
Or do I hold my breath and risk my professional liability?

These regulations protect TC and your employer, they do nothing to protect YOU the pilot.
Even Ross knew not to inhale. :rolleyes:

Very good, as has always been the way. Protect the employer and the regulator, all the while making the proles, er employees, feel as though they will be protected in the event of an occurrence.
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DonutHole
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by DonutHole »

rookiepilot wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:16 pm
PilotDAR wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:15 pm
But if you are a casual user, smart about how and when you consume with plenty of time to recover ................., I don't see any issues at all.
And it sounds like TC has defined "plenty of time to recover", so we're good!
Instead of "bottle to throttle" -- the new acronym will be "toke to yoke" :mrgreen:
I'm not a "your fan" but this right here is good work
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RatherBeFlying
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by RatherBeFlying »

Under 2 nanograms / ml blood is legal for driving in Canada, but I don't know the sensitivity or accuracy of the tests. When you're down to nanograms, accuracy really matters.

The 28 day rule is basically a way to say any detectable THC is illegal for flying as it can take as long as that for it to clear the system after a major dose in an overweight person.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for TC to fund a scientific study to correlate THC levels to pilot impairment.

Said another way, the reported required 28 day abstinence period is saying don't get caught with any detectable level of THC.

Corollary:

High BMI pilots must abstain 28 days before medical or employment physical. Really thin guys can get away with 5.6 days
For those interested, a medical treatment of the rate of elimination of the active ingredient.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2587336/
This finding may have informed the length of time chosen by the Canadian authorities.
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iflyforpie
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by iflyforpie »

7ECA wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:44 pm

Even Ross knew not to inhale. :rolleyes:
That was Bill... not Ross. Ross inhaled, but it was second hand. ;)

It was kind of funny how they stripped him of the gold for performance de-hancing drug.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

plausiblyannonymous
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

It's unfortunate, but until there is an accurate test of sobriety that can hold up in court, TC is not going to back down on this.

By going for 28 days, they are relieving themselves of responsibility of testing and enacting a fair regulation.

That being said, it really isn't 28 days because how will you prove it? The true regulation that they are enacting is that it is illegal to be caught with THC in your system when you report for duty.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by goingnowherefast »

It's illegal if I report for duty with alcohol in my system, even 0.01% BAC and there's no measurable level of impairment. Why should it be any different with THC? The body metabolises alcohol a lot faster than THC, and one expects a different standard because of that?

Zero means zero. Metabolic rate decides the timeline from "toke to yoke" or "bottle to throttle".
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RatherBeFlying
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Report on Business article in G&M

Post by RatherBeFlying »

Paywalled, but worth a trip to the library:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cannabi ... gulations/
Screenshot_20190704-103410.png
Screenshot_20190704-103410.png (342.86 KiB) Viewed 2408 times
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Kejidog
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Re: New TC Cannabis rule

Post by Kejidog »

What blows me away is they think they will have the ability to test to the full 28 days. From what I’ve read it is metabolized different in everyone. Fat vs thin and genetics and liver function play a huge part. It is a knee jerk reaction from a non evidenced based rules framework. I am interested to see this develop further. My employer ( a fire dept) put a 24 hour before duty rule as this is all they are able to test reliably. While local police have the 28 day rule as well. Most local cops i know do not follow the 28 day rule as they know how junky the science is. I am not a user and nor do i care who does.

Do i care if the pilots who fly me and my kids are baked? Yes but i for one do not think it impairs ANYONE up to 28 days later. And if it does why do chronics need to smoke daily?
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AirFrame
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by AirFrame »

What I want to know is how much would be detected in my system due to second-hand smoke. I used to have a neighbour in an apartment building who smoked pot on his balcony (long before it was legal). I'd smell it most days. Now, living on Vancouver Island and pot being legalized, I can't go more than a day or two without passing near someone smoking a joint in public. I'm exposed to the smoke regularly, but i'm still not directly partaking. What happens when someone catches a whiff of pot smoke on me because some smoker blew a lungful of weed fire in my direction and I happened to walk around the corner and through it before I realized?
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AuxBatOn
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Re: New TC Cannabis rule

Post by AuxBatOn »

Kejidog wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:51 am
Most local cops i know do not follow the 28 day rule as they know how junky the science is.
You are implying that most local cops smoke pot?
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Capt. Underpants
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Re: New TC Cannabis rule

Post by Capt. Underpants »

Kejidog wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:51 am
What blows me away is they think they will have the ability to test to the full 28 days.
IMHO, TC has no intention of testing anyone. The only venue they’d have is during a medical and if they tried, they would almost definitely face a legal challenge. The 28 day thing is simply an interpretation of “fit for duty”. It could allow an Aviation Medical Examiner to deny a medical if the candidate were to admit consumption within the past 28 days.

There’s no secret where they got that number, it’s the max time THC will show up in a blood test. In the event of a positive test for THC after an accident, TC can say, “We have a policy that would prevent such results. This person violated that policy. It’s not our fault.”
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Kejidog
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Re: New TC Cannabis rule

Post by Kejidog »

AuxBatOn wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:15 am
Kejidog wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:51 am
Most local cops i know do not follow the 28 day rule as they know how junky the science is.
You are implying that most local cops smoke pot?
Put words in my mouth? Or have problems comprehending what you quoted? Read it again s l o w l y. Then you may perceive my hidden meaning.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by AuxBatOn »

Most local cops do not follow the 28-day rule.

In order to not follow a rule, you need to transgress a rule. In this case, you are saying that most cops transgress a rule: the 28-day rule. In order to transgress the 28-day rule, someone needs to smoke pot. So, you are implying, in how you worded your argument, that most cops smoke weed.
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cncpc
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Re: New TC Cannabis rule

Post by cncpc »

Capt. Underpants wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:20 am
Kejidog wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:51 am
What blows me away is they think they will have the ability to test to the full 28 days.
IMHO, TC has no intention of testing anyone. The only venue they’d have is during a medical and if they tried, they would almost definitely face a legal challenge. The 28 day thing is simply an interpretation of “fit for duty”. It could allow an Aviation Medical Examiner to deny a medical if the candidate were to admit consumption within the past 28 days.

There’s no secret where they got that number, it’s the max time THC will show up in a blood test. In the event of a positive test for THC after an accident, TC can say, “We have a policy that would prevent such results. This person violated that policy. It’s not our fault.”
After a short time, it is not THC that shows up, it is metabolites of THC, THC-COOH that show up as a result of smoking, but to my knowledge, the metabolites do not cause highs, they indicate the use of THC at some point in the past. Within the timeframe in which the body eliminates the THC.

The intention of this rule is to stop pilots from smoking marijuana at all. It certainly offends the Charter.
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av8ts
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Re: New TC Cannabis rule

Post by av8ts »

AuxBatOn wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:15 am
Kejidog wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:51 am
Most local cops i know do not follow the 28 day rule as they know how junky the science is.
You are implying that most local cops smoke pot?
Just the ones he knows
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AuxBatOn
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by AuxBatOn »

Most cops he knows smoke pot? I see the kind of crowd he hangs out with...
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Capt. Underpants
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Re: New TC Cannabis rule

Post by Capt. Underpants »

cncpc wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:18 pm

After a short time, it is not THC that shows up, it is metabolites of THC, THC-COOH that show up as a result of smoking, but to my knowledge, the metabolites do not cause highs, they indicate the use of THC at some point in the past. Within the timeframe in which the body eliminates the THC.

The intention of this rule is to stop pilots from smoking marijuana at all. It certainly offends the Charter.
Absolutely. The problem is unlike alcohol which has been fairly well researched, there is no definitive test to show when there is no longer an intoxicating effect. Maybe someday science will catch up, or maybe it won't. Until such time that we have a reliable test, I am perfectly okay with stopping anyone in a safety-critical position from consuming THC - including non-flying managers like myself.
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bcguy2004
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by bcguy2004 »

Just in case this hasn't been posted before. I just got a letter from Transport re: Cannabis Use.

I don't fly much anymore (it's been 5+ years since my last flight), flew commercially briefly in 2003-2005 and since changed careers happily after a shot at ATC which didn't work out.

A few months back I went for a Cat 1 medical so I could go for some refresher flight training locally. I broke the unwritten rule of going to the same clinic as my regular GP for my Transport Canada medical exam. My GP is aware of my occasional Cannabis use and is unconcerned. However Transport doesn't feel the same way. I am (now) aware of the requirement to wait 28 days between cannabis use and acting as a pilot.

Here is the letter I received for everyone's perusal. I'm not too worried about it as I don't have plans to fly until at least April but someone who is depending on the medical for work certainly wouldn't feel the same way.

Image

I just watched this too, now I understand!

https://youtu.be/aYHDzrdXHEA
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2R
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by 2R »

According to the Lancet medical journal long term use of cannabis can cause serious mental health issues .
Other peer reviewed medical journals make similar warnings about the adverse brain damage caused by long term pot use .
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by C-GGGQ »

As far as I understood the serious mental health issues is for those who use under the age of 25 (when your brain chemistry is finally set)
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bcguy2004
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by bcguy2004 »

Fair enough. This post is just an FYI for the community. Judge me all you want, I could care less. There are far more damaging stimulus in our society that I won’t get into.

“Life is a terminal, sexually transmitted disease.” I think it was Carlin that said that.

I’ll update how it goes after my GP appointment in January. We’ll see if I have to pee in a cup. In the meantime: unfiltered sobriety!

Although I could indulge in a whole medicine cabinet of substances and alcohol and still be legal to fly the next day.
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digits_
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by digits_ »

Just heard some government infomercials on the radio. Don't drive high. Wait 4 hours after you have consumed cannabis before you go driving.
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Re: New TC Cannabis rules

Post by PilotDAR »

FWIW, it was a new and specific question on the newly revised TC medical form on my CAT 1 medical last week. My honest answer to the doctor easily closed the topic during my examination.
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