Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Gannet167
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:23 pm

Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by Gannet167 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:21 am

Like many in this business, I commute. It's nice to be able to live where it makes sense for me and my family, and economics for me and many like me require it. Id rather not be in uniform because I am a spectacle to the rest of the passengers who stare and ask questions, I cannot have a beer, try to remain on my good behaviour and I'd rather have a few less hours on one of my shirts that have to last me up to 17 days. So I go in business casual wearing my RAIC.

Why am I subject to the fluids restrictions? I had an extra vigilant CBSA guy pull my bag apart, after removing my company uniform hat, so he make a futile attempt to put my various liquids in a ziplock bag. All were under 100 ml, but my hand sanitizer, mouthwash and shave cream didn't fit. I haven't had this happen while travelling with the same items through multiple airports including the US. I guess Regina's security is extra tight, maybe that airport is a national security risk or something. So I had to exit security, go into the bathroom and change, which is tricky if you value not placing anything on filthy, piss covered surfaces. Now in my very wrinkled uniform shirt, partially buttoned, I reappear and suddenly these liquids are no longer a safety hazard to the public.

My RAIC should be enough. It's my security pass, identifies me and shows I've had the background checks and can be trusted. Without it, I could wear any uniform and still not be afforded the privileges of a RAIC. Yet with it, I can't have a 100 ml shave cream, it's not safe. I could be plotting something. However, I put on non issued black pants from Mark's, non issued shoes, non issued belt, a white shirt and epaulets that anyone could get from eBay and all of a sudden, the public is safe? I still need the RAIC, so why is the RAIC not enough on its own? It's either credible and valid as identification or it isn't. A costume I could get from Value Village shouldn't be what makes the difference.

Its hard to stomach when you know security is 99% a charade, a facade that has no basis in logic or effectiveness. I just want to go to work.
---------- ADS -----------
  

ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 5754
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CBSA

Post by ahramin » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:01 pm

I think you already answered your question. Just like the vast majority of TC rules and regulations for aviation security, it has nothing to do with security and everything to do with public perception of aviation security. Gotta keep the traveling public happy or they don't fly as much, which is not in our best interest.

It's not the background check on RAIC holders that transubstantiates the dangerous explosive water bottle into a safe drinkable water bottle, it's the uniform. End of story.

Last year the clowns in YQB wanted to take away two tins of duck cassoulet. As if! I was already wearing dark pants and a white dress shirt so I just pulled my uniform jacket and hat out of the suitcase and put them on, then asked again what the problem was with the food. End of argument. I know putting on your uniform to go through security seems like a big deal, bit it happened to you once. Be thankful it's not every time.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Justjohn
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:37 pm
Location: Just over the horizon ... & headed the wrong way.

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CBSA

Post by Justjohn » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:07 pm

If the aviation industry operated airplanes to the same standard CATSA secured airports and pax, there wouldn’t be a need for CATSA as there’d be no aviation industry what with all the accidents.

I utterly despise CATSA and struggle to keep my body language neutral when commuting and going through security.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Flying is better than walking. Walking is better than running. Running is better than crawling. All of these however, are better than extraction by a Med-Evac, even if this is technically a form of flying.

ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 5754
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CBSA

Post by ahramin » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:11 pm

Keep in mind that a lot of CATSA staff couldn't care less about aviation security (real or imagined). They're just there because all the good jobs at McDonald's are going to touch screens and they dig the uniform more. If you smile and seem apologetic about not meeting the liquid rules, they're far more likely to just let it go through. I regularly take a medium sized pelican case with a very bomb looking thing inside through security. No way I can explain to them that there's nothing in a vacuum bottle, they don't know any basic physics. But I smile and look sheepish and say "I know I know, it looks bad in the x-ray. It's for testing airplanes." 90% of the time that's enough to make them happy.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Gannet167
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:23 pm

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CBSA

Post by Gannet167 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:13 pm

I should've made the title of the thread "Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA", not CBSA. Got my draconian and ineffective gov't agencies mixed up.
---------- ADS -----------
  

ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 5754
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by ahramin » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:15 pm

Fixed that for you. As I used to say to the CATSA people, "My job is complicated enough that I shouldn't have to explain your job to you." As for CBSA well, just watching the perennial guy sucking away on his cigarette under the no smoking signs at YUL while wearing a big yellow sign on his shoulder saying "I keep illegal drugs out of the country" makes my day every time.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Gannet167
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:23 pm

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CBSA

Post by Gannet167 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:27 pm

I usually put my compliant, extra nice guy face on. Innocent and naive, doe eyed and non threatening obedient aircrew guy. It's usually your best course of action. Playing tough guy rarely works in these situations. You're dealing with the Vogans.

I try to imagine the travelling public seeing a guy in business clothes wearing an obvious red pass around his neck going through security and being treated differently, like permitted liquids (don't have to hide my coffee precariously in my flight bag, lest some grandma sees it and complains) and I think it's entirely acceptable. I don't think they'd have a problem knowing someone with a security pass gets trusted.

I guess I'll devise a system to quickly strip off of my white shirt once through security and stuff it into my bag. I'll Have to use this as undershirt.

Image
---------- ADS -----------
  

valleyboy
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 344
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 4:05 am

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by valleyboy » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:42 pm

Have things changed? When I was dead heading and you were out of uniform you were not allowed to display your RAIC pass and were treated as a normal passenger. It even went to the extreme that the company provided a letter stating we were deadhead crew so we could in fact deadhead out of uniform. One should also understand that each airport makes up its own rules for its security following the guidelines which are all open to interpretation.
---------- ADS -----------
  

digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2185
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by digits_ » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:46 pm

And don't forget, if you bring liquids through security -in uniform-, they have to be hidden from the passengers. That was news to me!
---------- ADS -----------
  

Heliian
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1487
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:14 pm

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by Heliian » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:58 pm

If you're on duty and in uniform with your raic then you're fine to travel with above limit items.

If you're not on duty or "working" then you do not use the raic and regular limits apply. I'm pretty sure it says right on the pass itself that the passes are for work activities only.

Drink beer and queue like the rest of us or wear the uniform and pretend you're at work.

You can't have it both ways.
---------- ADS -----------
  

ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 5754
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by ahramin » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:24 pm

Incorrect Heliian. It does not matter if you are working or on duty. The determinant of whether the liquid and gel restrictions apply is based strictly on being in uniform or not. A pilot working and not in uniform is still subject to the restrictions. A pilot on vacation who likes to wear his or her uniform is not.

It's useful to have the lastest security notice as many airports have versions that are years out of date and no longer apply.
---------- ADS -----------
  

ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 5754
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by ahramin » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:26 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:46 pm
And don't forget, if you bring liquids through security -in uniform-, they have to be hidden from the passengers. That was news to me!
Only at certain airports. This is not a Transport Canada rule but rather a rule invented by a security clown-in-charge at one airport and copied by others. YYJ, YEG, and YUL are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
---------- ADS -----------
  

digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2185
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by digits_ » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:40 pm

ahramin wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:26 pm
digits_ wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:46 pm
And don't forget, if you bring liquids through security -in uniform-, they have to be hidden from the passengers. That was news to me!
Only at certain airports. This is not a Transport Canada rule but rather a rule invented by a security clown-in-charge at one airport and copied by others. YYJ, YEG, and YUL are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
Interesting! You can add CYYC to that list ;-)
---------- ADS -----------
  

DHC-1 Jockey
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:41 pm

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by DHC-1 Jockey » Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:04 pm

I tried to take a lunch bag through security once in YOW with a frozen-solid gel ice block inside. I was deadheading on company business but not in uniform. I was told I couldn't take it through as it exceeded the liquids amount when not in uniform. I took it out and showed him that it was still in fact solid, and wouldn't be liquid for quite some time. The look of confusion on his face was priceless.

Long story short, they were still going to confiscate it. And so I went and changed into uniform, came back to the exact same CATSA agent 5 mins later and was given no further grief. As the OP said, it's the uniform that makes the item safe, not the item itself.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Gannet167
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:23 pm

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by Gannet167 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:30 pm

CATSA permits using RAIC as ID when travelling as a passenger, such as when commuting. I think they prefer you use it if you have it because it puts you in the trusted traveller category and allows them to push you through easier and faster.

If it counts as ID and indicates that you're trustworthy (the kind of trustworthy that allows you to sit on a flight deck by yourself behind a locked door) it should work for liquids.
---------- ADS -----------
  

sstocker31
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:04 pm

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by sstocker31 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:19 pm

We keep our Aircraft over at a FBO.....we taxi to the gate, and then have to get out of the plane...go through security and the right back to the plane to operate the "Secure flight"....we leave all of our guns, knives, and dangerous stuff on the plane so they don't find it in our bags as we go through security.....what a complete waste of time!!
---------- ADS -----------
  

co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3402
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by co-joe » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:06 pm

The toughest CATSA people by far I've ever met are in Comox. Zero chill in that workspace. Even compared to the dude who grabbed my penis twice during pat down in LAX. He was nice by comparison. I kind of felt like offering to buy him a drink after.

Seriously though, just wear the uniform through security and find a phone booth to become Clark Kent again after.
---------- ADS -----------
  

GhostRider6
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:14 am

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by GhostRider6 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:26 pm

This is by far my favorite post on avcanada ...

I completely agree with the aforementioned points.. It’s the illusion of security.

On a side note, can CATSA examine your cellphone while clearing a screening checkpoint and operating ? I’ve had a CATSA employee demand to examine my phone.. after the “ phone examination” was complete some of my gf’s pictures (less than clothed) were opened.. my gf was not impressed .. needless to say, no more pics for me..🤬🤬 I was not happy.. the pics were not opened and the CATSA employee had to put effort into finding the pics..

Do I have recourse and can I deny a CATSA phone examination ? CBSA / TSA it’s a no brainer they’ll look..

There’s gotta be some public accountability and limits .
---------- ADS -----------
  

mijbil
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:06 pm
Location: Rain Coast

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by mijbil » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:54 pm

My favourite so far was the mincing prancer (supervisor) in CYOW who sniffed "a knife is a knife" and then confiscated the silver coloured plastic knife that is part of the meal service at my airline. It seemed pointless to mention that around the corner on the secure side was a Darcy McGee's pub where I can get my mitts on a real stainless steak knife.
The madness goes the other way also. I called CATSA HQ once to inquire if I could bring a narwhal tusk down from Iqaluit in my hand luggage as I would not want it damaged. Apparently the answer is yes, since it is an animal part. I said that basically it is a 3 foot spear. No problem.....unless a local CATSA mandarin decides that it is a problem.
---------- ADS -----------
  

ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 5754
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by ahramin » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:11 pm

Transport Canada and the airports set the rules, not CATSA. If someone wants to take away a plastic knife, I would refer them to the applicable rules:

https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/services/transp ... plane.html
Objects with sharp points or sharp edges that could be used to cause serious injury, including:
Items designed for chopping, such as axes, hatchets and cleavers
Ice axes and ice picks
Razor type blades such as box cutters, utility knives, and safety razor blades
Knives with blades of more than 6 cm
Scissors with blades longer than 6 cm as measured from the fulcrum
Martial arts equipment with sharp points or sharp edges
Swords, sabres
Of course, this is all predicated on you having the time to stand around until they give up being foolish. I had to go back and forth with YQB security for half an hour once before they finally let me through. If you're in a hurry, you're just going to have to comply, take their name and number, and complain later.
---------- ADS -----------
  

av8ts
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 792
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:31 am

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by av8ts » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:16 pm

ahramin wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:26 pm
digits_ wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:46 pm
And don't forget, if you bring liquids through security -in uniform-, they have to be hidden from the passengers. That was news to me!
Only at certain airports. This is not a Transport Canada rule but rather a rule invented by a security clown-in-charge at one airport and copied by others. YYJ, YEG, and YUL are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
It’s a TC rule. Crew in uniform are only exempt from the liquids and gels rule for items inside their bags
---------- ADS -----------
  

ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 5754
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by ahramin » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:43 pm

av8ts wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:16 pm
ahramin wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:26 pm
digits_ wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:46 pm
And don't forget, if you bring liquids through security -in uniform-, they have to be hidden from the passengers. That was news to me!
Only at certain airports. This is not a Transport Canada rule but rather a rule invented by a security clown-in-charge at one airport and copied by others. YYJ, YEG, and YUL are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
It’s a TC rule. Crew in uniform are only exempt from the liquids and gels rule for items inside their bags
Source?
---------- ADS -----------
  

ant_321
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 511
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:43 pm

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by ant_321 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:40 pm

And some European countries won’t allow any deadheading crew an exemption even if they are in uniform. The clowns at LGW cost me about $50 with everything they threw out. And every country in Europe seems to be different in what and when they allow it.
---------- ADS -----------
  

ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 5754
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by ahramin » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:19 am

No airport in the UK has any exemptions for any crews. Operating or not, in or out of uniform. Local or foreign. Anything over the limits must be checked.

Is there any country outside Canada that has exemptions for Canadian crews deadheading?
---------- ADS -----------
  

ant_321
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 511
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:43 pm

Re: Commuting In/Out of Uniform & CATSA

Post by ant_321 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:52 am

ahramin wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:19 am
No airport in the UK has any exemptions for any crews. Operating or not, in or out of uniform. Local or foreign. Anything over the limits must be checked.

Is there any country outside Canada that has exemptions for Canadian crews deadheading?
Everywhere in the Caribbean, U.S.A, Germany and the Netherlands. Other than that I’m not sure.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”