uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

flyguy73
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:10 pm

uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by flyguy73 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:20 pm

Not to beat a dead horse, but I am looking at installing an ADS-B system in order to enable flight into the US after Jan 2020. Since we have no mandate in Canada yet (and nothing really on the horizon for GA), I am looking at installing the uAvionix SkyBeacon 978MHz UAT device in my PA28. Has anyone done this in Canada? It appears that after installing, I then have to do an evaluation flight test under US ADS-B coverage (SW Ontario should suffice) and send a Performance Report to the FAA. Does this sound right?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Helno
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:49 am

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by Helno » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:19 am

I would wait and see before installing something that 100% will not meet our standards.

You do not actually need to have ADS-B OUT unless you fly in transponder airspace in the US after 2020.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
AirFrame
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1932
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by AirFrame » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:36 am

You do need it to cross the border, though.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Mooney21
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:31 am

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by Mooney21 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:46 am

flyguy73 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:20 pm
Not to beat a dead horse, but I am looking at installing an ADS-B system in order to enable flight into the US after Jan 2020. Since we have no mandate in Canada yet (and nothing really on the horizon for GA), I am looking at installing the uAvionix SkyBeacon 978MHz UAT device in my PA28. Has anyone done this in Canada? It appears that after installing, I then have to do an evaluation flight test under US ADS-B coverage (SW Ontario should suffice) and send a Performance Report to the FAA. Does this sound right?
I have installed a different uAvionix in my RV-10 that works very well with my iPad. The SkyBeacon is certainly is a good way to go for a certified aircraft, being the least expensive and taking only minutes to instal. After you have done a flight within ADS-B coverage, you obtain a flight report from the FAA via their website, for confirmation of serviceability. (Which I haven't done yet).
---------- ADS -----------
  

Mapleflt
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 462
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by Mapleflt » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:18 am

If or when NavCanada adopts ADS-B it’s expect to likely be in the 1090 MHz band so the uAvionics unit will not be compliant, just a thought for your consideration
---------- ADS -----------
  

boeingboy
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1025
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:57 pm
Location: West coast

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by boeingboy » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:27 am

Navcanada will be requiring ADSB within the next 5 years or so. As mentioned above it will be 1090 and they have not let off the dual antenna requirement.

If you go with the skybeacon - it will only cost you more in the future when you have to retrofit.
---------- ADS -----------
  

flyguy73
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:10 pm

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by flyguy73 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:10 pm

Thanks all for the responses. We do occasionally fly in Class C airspace in the US, so we were needing to do something prior to Jan 2020. The SkyBeacon seemed a reasonable solution for $2500 and 15 min install vs $5000+ and 1-2 day install for a new 1090ES transponder that still doesn't offer antenna diversity. A bottom mount antenna will not meet any eventual 1090ES Canadian requirement either so it seemed like the best solution today was to go for the 978MHz SkyBeacon now and decide what to once we get a mandate in Canada in the future.

On another note, anyone know whether we could carry both the 978 MHz unit AND a 1090ES space-based unit in the future to meet both mandates?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Mooney21
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:31 am

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by Mooney21 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:25 am

Most of us flying into the USA on fairly regular basis cannot wait for NavCan to make up their mind about ADS-B. Also if Canada is alone in requiring 1090ES, this market would be so small that no avionics developpers be interested in meeting the canadian 1090ES requirement for small aircraft. If Europe was to get on board with 1090ES, it could accelerate matters. But this is 5 to 10 years down the road in my estimation. Just my two cents.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
AirFrame
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1932
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by AirFrame » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:44 am

Canada is not alone in requiring 1090ES. Literally the rest of the planet outside the US is going to 1090, space-based ADS-B.
---------- ADS -----------
  

CpnCrunch
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2926
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by CpnCrunch » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:24 am

This might solve all our problems:

https://uavionix.com/testing-sbx/
---------- ADS -----------
  

flyguy73
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:10 pm

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by flyguy73 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:32 am

CpnCrunch wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:24 am
This might solve all our problems:

https://uavionix.com/testing-sbx/
I was not aware of this, but that indeed might be the solution. Hopefully when this gets approval, existing SkyBeacon owners will be able to upgrade to this version for a reduced cost.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Cessna 180
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:28 pm
Location: YKF

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by Cessna 180 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:31 pm

1090ES systems are perfectly valid in the US FYI. Id go with a bottom mount 1090ES transponder for now from one of the few options that support diversity, and upgrade in the future, if and when TC mandates ADS-B.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
AirFrame
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1932
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by AirFrame » Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:47 am

Cessna 180 wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:31 pm
1090ES systems are perfectly valid in the US FYI. Id go with a bottom mount 1090ES transponder for now from one of the few options that support diversity, and upgrade in the future, if and when TC mandates ADS-B.
Except the diversity-supporting 1090ES systems are all in the $5-10k range right now...hardly an economical solution.
---------- ADS -----------
  

flyguy73
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:10 pm

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by flyguy73 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:16 am

AirFrame wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:47 am
Cessna 180 wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:31 pm
1090ES systems are perfectly valid in the US FYI. Id go with a bottom mount 1090ES transponder for now from one of the few options that support diversity, and upgrade in the future, if and when TC mandates ADS-B.
Except the diversity-supporting 1090ES systems are all in the $5-10k range right now...hardly an economical solution.
Exactly. And that's the price BEFORE installation. Figure another $1-2k for install or more if you don't already have a WAAS GPS source. For a $25k airplane, a $10k transponder is a deal-breaker. But, if I want to be compliant to fly in Class C airspace in the US, then I must equip with something.

I went with the 978MHz SkyBeacon for now but will upgrade to the SkyBeacon X when it gets approved. I have asked and uAvionix assures me that there will be an upgrade path for existing SkyBeacon 978MHz owners.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Cessna 180
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:28 pm
Location: YKF

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by Cessna 180 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:14 am

flyguy73 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:16 am
AirFrame wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:47 am
Cessna 180 wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:31 pm
1090ES systems are perfectly valid in the US FYI. Id go with a bottom mount 1090ES transponder for now from one of the few options that support diversity, and upgrade in the future, if and when TC mandates ADS-B.
Except the diversity-supporting 1090ES systems are all in the $5-10k range right now...hardly an economical solution.
Exactly. And that's the price BEFORE installation. Figure another $1-2k for install or more if you don't already have a WAAS GPS source. For a $25k airplane, a $10k transponder is a deal-breaker. But, if I want to be compliant to fly in Class C airspace in the US, then I must equip with something.

I went with the 978MHz SkyBeacon for now but will upgrade to the SkyBeacon X when it gets approved. I have asked and uAvionix assures me that there will be an upgrade path for existing SkyBeacon 978MHz owners.
Looks like you have the right idea. Have you found someone in Canada that will install it for a reasonable price? I have a buddy who's going to need it installed this year, and it they are going to have some sort of swap out or upgrade for the 1090es, going with the sky beacon 978 might be the way to go for the next 4-6 years.

still may make the trip to the US if the price is right.
---------- ADS -----------
  

flyguy73
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:10 pm

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by flyguy73 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:42 am

Cessna 180 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:14 am
flyguy73 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:16 am
AirFrame wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:47 am


Except the diversity-supporting 1090ES systems are all in the $5-10k range right now...hardly an economical solution.
Exactly. And that's the price BEFORE installation. Figure another $1-2k for install or more if you don't already have a WAAS GPS source. For a $25k airplane, a $10k transponder is a deal-breaker. But, if I want to be compliant to fly in Class C airspace in the US, then I must equip with something.

I went with the 978MHz SkyBeacon for now but will upgrade to the SkyBeacon X when it gets approved. I have asked and uAvionix assures me that there will be an upgrade path for existing SkyBeacon 978MHz owners.
Looks like you have the right idea. Have you found someone in Canada that will install it for a reasonable price? I have a buddy who's going to need it installed this year, and it they are going to have some sort of swap out or upgrade for the 1090es, going with the sky beacon 978 might be the way to go for the next 4-6 years.

still may make the trip to the US if the price is right.
My regular AME was able to do it. Installation is a snap. Setup took a bit longer, but not much. I can't say exactly what the installation cost as we had some other work done as well. I would estimate it took him an hour from start to finish. I've got an old Garmin GTX 320 Mode C, but it's working and I really didn't want to have to replace it.

Only problem so far is that he was unable to program the callsign for the plane. I'm not sure if it is expecting an N-number or if this was an error on his part. At any rate, I've got a support request in with uAvionix to check this.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Cessna 180
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:28 pm
Location: YKF

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by Cessna 180 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:07 pm

flyguy73 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:42 am
Cessna 180 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:14 am
flyguy73 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:16 am


Exactly. And that's the price BEFORE installation. Figure another $1-2k for install or more if you don't already have a WAAS GPS source. For a $25k airplane, a $10k transponder is a deal-breaker. But, if I want to be compliant to fly in Class C airspace in the US, then I must equip with something.

I went with the 978MHz SkyBeacon for now but will upgrade to the SkyBeacon X when it gets approved. I have asked and uAvionix assures me that there will be an upgrade path for existing SkyBeacon 978MHz owners.
Looks like you have the right idea. Have you found someone in Canada that will install it for a reasonable price? I have a buddy who's going to need it installed this year, and it they are going to have some sort of swap out or upgrade for the 1090es, going with the sky beacon 978 might be the way to go for the next 4-6 years.

still may make the trip to the US if the price is right.
My regular AME was able to do it. Installation is a snap. Setup took a bit longer, but not much. I can't say exactly what the installation cost as we had some other work done as well. I would estimate it took him an hour from start to finish. I've got an old Garmin GTX 320 Mode C, but it's working and I really didn't want to have to replace it.

Only problem so far is that he was unable to program the callsign for the plane. I'm not sure if it is expecting an N-number or if this was an error on his part. At any rate, I've got a support request in with uAvionix to check this.
Sounds great. Let me know about the N number, however I can't see it being an issue because you could program it with your ICAO callsign or as they advertise, lifeflight call signs or medevac.

we have an old dial analog transponder, could use updating, but it works presently.
---------- ADS -----------
  

flyguy73
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:10 pm

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by flyguy73 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:51 am

Cessna 180 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:07 pm
flyguy73 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:42 am
Cessna 180 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:14 am


Looks like you have the right idea. Have you found someone in Canada that will install it for a reasonable price? I have a buddy who's going to need it installed this year, and it they are going to have some sort of swap out or upgrade for the 1090es, going with the sky beacon 978 might be the way to go for the next 4-6 years.

still may make the trip to the US if the price is right.
My regular AME was able to do it. Installation is a snap. Setup took a bit longer, but not much. I can't say exactly what the installation cost as we had some other work done as well. I would estimate it took him an hour from start to finish. I've got an old Garmin GTX 320 Mode C, but it's working and I really didn't want to have to replace it.

Only problem so far is that he was unable to program the callsign for the plane. I'm not sure if it is expecting an N-number or if this was an error on his part. At any rate, I've got a support request in with uAvionix to check this.
Sounds great. Let me know about the N number, however I can't see it being an issue because you could program it with your ICAO callsign or as they advertise, lifeflight call signs or medevac.

we have an old dial analog transponder, could use updating, but it works presently.
I went down to the plane last week and finally took a look. I was able to connect and enter the ICAO value and the callsign, but without the hyphen ("-"). It worked fine for a 2.5 hour flight to Pembroke and showed up on my ForeFlight using a Stratux the whole time.

Haven't flown to the US yet, or performed my FAA Performance flight, but I don't anticipate any problems. This was the lowest cost option to allow us into Class C airspace in the US ($2500 CAD). In the future, I expect I will upgrade to the SkyBeacon X, but I probably have at least 5 years to do that.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Helno
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:49 am

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by Helno » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:56 am

Something I have not seen mentioned here is that 978mhz used by UAT is a DME channel that is still in use in Canada. The US UAT ground station network was planned around not interfering with our existing DME ground stations.

Theoretically it is not legal to broadcast on 978 MHz in Canada but there does not appear to be any enforcement at the moment.

I had a chat with someone from TC this weekend and part of the discussion was regarding the proposed diversity antenna requirement and the impression I got was that the wording will likely change to "Omnidirectional" since true diversity is not really needed and is prohibitively expensive.

It is a wait and see situation at the moment but it appears that there are people at TC who still care about GA access to airspace.
---------- ADS -----------
  

boeingboy
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1025
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:57 pm
Location: West coast

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by boeingboy » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:50 am

Problem is...at the end of the day - TC has no real say in the matter. Nav Canada is the one who makes the decisions.
---------- ADS -----------
  

flyguy73
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:10 pm

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by flyguy73 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:28 am

Helno wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:56 am
Something I have not seen mentioned here is that 978mhz used by UAT is a DME channel that is still in use in Canada. The US UAT ground station network was planned around not interfering with our existing DME ground stations.

Theoretically it is not legal to broadcast on 978 MHz in Canada but there does not appear to be any enforcement at the moment.

I had a chat with someone from TC this weekend and part of the discussion was regarding the proposed diversity antenna requirement and the impression I got was that the wording will likely change to "Omnidirectional" since true diversity is not really needed and is prohibitively expensive.

It is a wait and see situation at the moment but it appears that there are people at TC who still care about GA access to airspace.
This may be true, but at least with the SkyBeacon, it can be turned off simply by turning off the nav lights. Doesn't help at night, of course.

I'm not sure antenna diversity was ever specified, rather that space-based ADS-B was. Does NavCanada care if it takes 2 antennae to do this? Antenna diversity was thought to be the answer by the manufacturers. It meets the requirement but is not the only solution.
---------- ADS -----------
  

boeingboy
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1025
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:57 pm
Location: West coast

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by boeingboy » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:06 am

I'm not sure antenna diversity was ever specified, rather that space-based ADS-B was. Does NavCanada care if it takes 2 antennae to do this? Antenna diversity was thought to be the answer by the manufacturers. It meets the requirement but is not the only solution.
Yes it was specified.

Because the system is space based only - Nav Canada is worried about antenna shadowing due to the satellite not being able to see the belly antenna. Although the manufactures are trying to tell them it should not be a problem - Nav Canada so far is not wavering from their initial requirements.
---------- ADS -----------
  

ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 5752
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by ahramin » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:50 pm

I had a long discussion with TC about this at Oshkosh. My takeaway was:

1. TC is the regulator but NavCanada is the service provider and sets the level of service provided in a given airspace and what the requirements are for that level of service. TC can put their oar in but at the end of the day NavCanada decides. It's unfortunate that neither TC nor GA have a seat on the board.

2. NavCanada has moved away from a diversity antenna required to a performance based requirement. It likely this will be the final rule. If your ADS-B box works with the space based system with one antenna, or a paper cup and string for that matter, it will meet the requirements.

3. For high traffic density areas NavCanada is considering ground based antenna. The example he gave me was that if you have a ground station only system you will probably be ok in YVR class C, but not in YLW class C.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
AirFrame
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1932
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by AirFrame » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:39 am

ahramin wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:50 pm
3. For high traffic density areas NavCanada is considering ground based antenna. The example he gave me was that if you have a ground station only system you will probably be ok in YVR class C, but not in YLW class C.
Maybe broadcasting on 978, like the US? With Wx, Notams, etc.?

I know, I know, NavCanada isn't going to give anything away for free....But a man can dream, can't he?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Helno
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:49 am

Re: uAvionix SkyBeacon installation in Canada

Post by Helno » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:10 am

ahramin wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:50 pm
3. For high traffic density areas NavCanada is considering ground based antenna. The example he gave me was that if you have a ground station only system you will probably be ok in YVR class C, but not in YLW class C.
It seems silly not to do this for the high density airports.

Picking up 1090 ADS-B OUT traffic is so inexpensive that they would be foolish not to have a few receivers setup just in case they lose the datalink to the satellite provider.
AirFrame wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:39 am
Maybe broadcasting on 978, like the US? With Wx, Notams, etc.?
Doubtful. They seem pretty uninterested in helping the people working on weather broadcasting trials.

I have a test transmitter on 915 MHz setup that can broadcast weather to Stratux users but crowdsourcing a ground network is going to be a lot of work compared with Nav Canada setting up transmitters at existing sites. More information here. viewtopic.php?f=128&t=130728

They give the excuse that Canada is to large to affordably service but realistically you only need towers in areas were there is weather data to broadcast. Only broadcasting weather in areas where data exists really cuts down on the number of stations needed.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”