Why is multi time so important to the airlines?

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mixturerich
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Why is multi time so important to the airlines?

Post by mixturerich » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:48 pm

For starters, let’s assume someone is coming from a multi crew operated single turbine.

What’s the real difference? 99% of people have never had an engine failure in a twin turbine and 99% of the time, the power levers are operated together. For the most part, the plane flies straight and flies just like a single turbine airplane. If anything, you use less rudder in the twin.

Apart from V1 cuts in a sim, or simulated engine failures in flight, how would someone coming from a twin turbine be much more “experienced” than someone coming from a single turbine, apart from looking at twice the amount of engine instruments? Is a king air pilot much more skilled than a PC12 pilot, assuming no engine failures? Is multi crew the real factor here? Insurance factors? Gross weight? Speed?

Just curious as to how the AvCanada experts weigh in on this. I have no stake in this discussion, just starting a conversation.
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Re: Why is multi time so important to the airlines?

Post by C-GGGQ » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:55 pm

I actually think that's starting to come around a bit, and PC12 time as log as it's multi crew is ranking up there with your multi turbine.
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daedalusx
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Re: Why is multi time so important to the airlines?

Post by daedalusx » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:11 pm

Having flown both, I massively disagree.

Sure they kinda fly similarly on the line and flying the PC12 in a multi crew cockpit somewhat gets you in the mindset of 705 operation with proper FMA scans and calls and PF/PM roles (although the PC12 is absolutely much more of a single pilot designed AC than the kingair even was.)

But for training and the ride, PC12 time is near useless. A pilot with 3000hrs of kingair time has showed that he passed at least half a dozen rides with V1 cuts, engine failure recognition, single engine speed management, single engine NPAs, etc All of those applies to the airline world to some degrees. Airlines as much as they can, wants someone who will pass the ride.

The PC12 is the easiest PPC ever, and while the sim training reminded me of the fun i had doing autorotations and altitude/energy management from my stint in the rotary world, it doesn’t really translate well to bigger turbo props and twin jets.

In fact, I remember a very very smart and experienced PC12 Capt failing a Jazz interview sim eval because he just wasn’t used to hand flying on 1 engine.

That being said, most people PC12 guys I’ve flown with were pretty sharp and some operators certainly trains their guys to higher standards than other.
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daedalusx
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Re: Why is multi time so important to the airlines?

Post by daedalusx » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:35 pm

Also as reliable as the PT6 is ... I’d say at least 10% of the pilots I know, over the years, had to shut one down. Wasn’t always the typical fire/flameout but it required the crew to shut it down and manage the plane to a safe landing.

I’ve seen HP oil hose blown, FCUs failure, stuck torque, fuel starvation due to improper maintenance of the fuel tank, oil leaks, etc. All of those events were extremely well managed by the crews some of them operating in the Arctic and/or around mountainous terrain in some cases, requiring good decision making and CRM.
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Warden
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Re: Why is multi time so important to the airlines?

Post by Warden » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:46 pm

Personally, I don't think it is.

Given how automated large 705 machines are these days it won't help that much. Unless you go on a dash or Q etc. I'd rather have an FO with 1000 hours glass time in a PC12 NG vs 1000 hours right seat in a steam gauge Navajo or King Air.
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Re: Why is multi time so important to the airlines?

Post by valleyboy » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:47 pm

1000 hours glass time in a PC12 NG vs 1000 hours right seat in a steam gauge Navajo or King Air.
From what I have seen it's mute until you try and teach an FMS box. The actual instrumentation is the same in function. Not many NG'S in commercial service.
Where the system is the weakest is that although people think they have multi crew experience my observation says otherwise. When you have low time captains paired with zero time f/o's there is very little multi crew stuff going on. Even a lot of the aircraft fail to have 2 complete sets of flight and navigation instruments. I find it ironic that aircraft designed for single pilot sticks a warm body in the right seat to satisfy some rules yet the tools to do the job are not included.

The other thing is air borne training is so restricted and choreographed it does not challenge or promote the pilot skills nor their ability to follow SOP's or manage an emergency check list.

So yes, in the grand scheme of things light aircraft time does not mean much when it comes to giving the tools for 705. It's more about personality and work ethic when you are trying to get your foot in the door (of course the ATPL give you a leg up over a commercial holder)

If I was on the selection panel I would certainly lean towards someone who hand spanked an aircraft IFR more than someone flying a fully automated FMS equipped aeroplane.
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Re: Why is multi time so important to the airlines?

Post by link821 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:03 pm

Warden wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:46 pm
Personally, I don't think it is.

Given how automated large 705 machines are these days it won't help that much. Unless you go on a dash or Q etc. I'd rather have an FO with 1000 hours glass time in a PC12 NG vs 1000 hours right seat in a steam gauge Navajo or King Air.
other side of that coin, the 1000 hr Navajo pilot has probably had to deal with more real life situations then then the 1000 hr pc12 pilot. just a biased opinion though.
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Re: Why is multi time so important to the airlines?

Post by Warden » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:25 pm

I don't disagree. It's a really hard argument to find an answer for since all experience is varied depending on the individual and the company they worked for. You could be at a PC12 company that has horrible SOPs and no CRM at all or fly a Navajo with a great training program, SOPs etc. So it's all relative.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Why is multi time so important to the airlines?

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:51 pm

Warden wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:25 pm
experience is varied depending on the individual and the company they worked for.
Haha, ain't that the truth. I spent 500 miserable hours at a King Air gig and had more engine troubles than I did with 1000hrs on Navajos at a much more reputable company. Thank your lucky stars they didn't have PC-12s cause the mighty PT6 was a struggle for them.

Both companies had respectable SOPs and CRM was above average for 703 with 1500hr captains.

I agree that it matters more what type of operation the pilot comes from more so than how many power levers the plane has.
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Re: Why is multi time so important to the airlines?

Post by confusedalot » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:24 pm

Old thinking is what it is. There are jurisdictions around the world that hire zero time people, train them, and stick them into 777's in the right seat.

Multiengine time is nice but not really neccessary. You will find out how a V1 cut (engine failure right after takeoff) feels like on your first few simulator sessions. Not the most comfortable thing, but it is trainable.
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Re: Why is multi time so important to the airlines?

Post by shimmydampner » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:25 pm

Warden wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:46 pm
Given how automated large 705 machines are these days it won't help that much. Unless you go on a dash or Q etc. I'd rather have an FO with 1000 hours glass time in a PC12 NG vs 1000 hours right seat in a steam gauge Navajo or King Air.
That seems like a very arbitrary and silly distinction to make. I don't think glass or steam makes much difference, and it certainly doesn't take 1000 hours to figure it out. I can take any 250 hour dummy out of flight school and teach them everything they need to know about the automation in a few training sessions. However, there are some things that are far harder to teach and take much longer to learn for some people. Aircraft handling, decision making, situational awareness and common sense to name a few. I think it matters far more what kind of flying that 1000 hours was, rather than how the cockpit or flight deck was outfitted.
As for multi time, I am not involved in hiring at an airline but I'm guessing the airlines want to hire candidates that are as close to proven winners as they can possibly find. So I would guess that yes, things like experience with some level of automaton is a plus. As is two crew, SOP experience. And (as was pointed out by a previous poster) also multi engine experience as it shows a history of, at the very least, exposure to important and relevant concepts and techniques. Sure, you'll find out what a V1 cut feels like in your first few sim sessions. And yes, it's trainable (usually.) But if you were about to sink tens of thousands of dollars into training someone and you had two, otherwise equal candidates but one hasn't seen a V1 cut since flight school, and the other has been knocking 2 engine rides out of the park for a couple years, you're really going to gamble on the guy who had the shinier instruments?
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Re: Why is multi time so important to the airlines?

Post by rigpiggy » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:59 am

I love the PT6 however in my roughly 10k hrs on them I have shutdown 3 of them. 1 precautionary, 1 about to fail, and 1 full on sh!t the bed. After the shutdown, feather and trim they all fly kind of the same a little out of trim they are a lot harder. My last failure, do the checklist fly back to departure(40 minutes) advise atc, advise company, check ground services, order replacement aircraft with towbar and mechs, liaise with stoc for pax etc........

PC12 failure, do the checklist look for a place to land.


I have been offered some good paying PC12 gigs, my response is "No Thanks I don't fly singles IFR
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Re: Why is multi time so important to the airlines?

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:21 am

I have been offered some good paying PC12 gigs, my response is "No Thanks I don't fly singles IFR
Same here, I consider it good decision making.
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Re: Why is multi time so important to the airlines?

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:23 am

my response is "No Thanks I don't fly singles IFR
Same here, I consider it good decision making.
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Re: Why is multi time so important to the airlines?

Post by Warden » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:13 pm

shimmydampner wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:25 pm
Warden wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:46 pm
Given how automated large 705 machines are these days it won't help that much. Unless you go on a dash or Q etc. I'd rather have an FO with 1000 hours glass time in a PC12 NG vs 1000 hours right seat in a steam gauge Navajo or King Air.
That seems like a very arbitrary and silly distinction to make. I don't think glass or steam makes much difference, and it certainly doesn't take 1000 hours to figure it out. I can take any 250 hour dummy out of flight school and teach them everything they need to know about the automation in a few training sessions. However, there are some things that are far harder to teach and take much longer to learn for some people. Aircraft handling, decision making, situational awareness and common sense to name a few. I think it matters far more what kind of flying that 1000 hours was, rather than how the cockpit or flight deck was outfitted.
As for multi time, I am not involved in hiring at an airline but I'm guessing the airlines want to hire candidates that are as close to proven winners as they can possibly find. So I would guess that yes, things like experience with some level of automaton is a plus. As is two crew, SOP experience. And (as was pointed out by a previous poster) also multi engine experience as it shows a history of, at the very least, exposure to important and relevant concepts and techniques. Sure, you'll find out what a V1 cut feels like in your first few sim sessions. And yes, it's trainable (usually.) But if you were about to sink tens of thousands of dollars into training someone and you had two, otherwise equal candidates but one hasn't seen a V1 cut since flight school, and the other has been knocking 2 engine rides out of the park for a couple years, you're really going to gamble on the guy who had the shinier instruments?
Based on what I've seen, experience with tapes and glass helps tremendously when training on a first 705 machine. I've flown with those "250 our dummies" at Jazz and they are 50/50. Some are great. Some are horrible and I wouldn't want to be in the back of a plane of theirs when they upgrade at 1500 hours.

If someone has been doing Flight Safety rides on a King Air, sure they have some good ride experience. If they only have Navajo time, they've most likely only done a few in flight mock engine failures at a safe altitude and that's hardly the same thing.
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