Becoming a pilot with a DUI

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ThatGuyHoldingShort
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Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by ThatGuyHoldingShort » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:15 pm

Good day community,

I have a friend who's looking to getting into aviation but had a DUI on his record.

I have no idea what that means for him and I'm sure some of you have heard or had the experience yourself.

I know when I worked for bush operations and medevac it never mattered however have heard of airlines having issues with this and not hiring them because of this.

Any info is great info. I'm assuming by the time he'd have enough hours to join he may be able to apply for pardon and have it cleared as well?
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by CL-Skadoo! » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:06 am

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jakeandelwood
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by jakeandelwood » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:46 am

I had a dangerous driving charge from when I was 19. I didn't affect me at all throughout flying until I applied at Air Canada. I actually forgot I even had it by that point, AC wouldn't hire me but I think that was more because I had not mentioned it on the application and they considered that lying, I tried to explain that it was 20 years ago and I just forgot about it but it was to late. I went and applied for a pardon the very next day and the charge was gone within a few months.
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altiplano
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by altiplano » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:49 am

Tell him not to go to the US until he gets a pardon.

With a pardon it won't be a problem from a job perspective. But the US won't recognize the pardon once the record is on their system, which it will be if you cross the border, and it will make US travel a hassle for your whole career.
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:00 pm

But the US won't recognize the pardon once the record is on their system, which it will be if you cross the border, and it will make US travel a hassle for your whole career.
That was not my experience, I was questioned a few times in the first couple of years but after that I never had another problem with it.
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by jakeandelwood » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:08 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:00 pm
But the US won't recognize the pardon once the record is on their system, which it will be if you cross the border, and it will make US travel a hassle for your whole career.
That was not my experience, I was questioned a few times in the first couple of years but after that I never had another problem with it.
Strange, with my criminal record I got pulled aside once crossing the border as a passenger on an airline flight, hassled, held and questioned. I had driven across with the same record about 3 times, never a problem. I also flew a rental plane across a few times and never a problem. I also flew a commercial plane as FO and as PIC about 30 times and again never a problem, just that one time as a passenger.
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altiplano
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by altiplano » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:38 pm

It's mostly not a problem until it is... some guy saving the homeland, bad day, whatever...

You would be wise with any conviction to have a US waiver as your job likely requires "unrestricted travel to the USA".

The one day you're refused entry - even if it's wrong - and your flight cancels, now you're explaining yourself to a manager and your job is on the line...

Keep it easy on yourself, either stay out of the US and don't get in their system until your pardon goes through, or plan on getting/renewing a waiver every 5 years at significant expense, or don't and roll the dice and wonder every time you step up to the counter if this is the day you get a jerk and refused entry and put your job on the line.

It's just not worth it.
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digits_
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by digits_ » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:03 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:49 am
Tell him not to go to the US until he gets a pardon.

With a pardon it won't be a problem from a job perspective. But the US won't recognize the pardon once the record is on their system, which it will be if you cross the border, and it will make US travel a hassle for your whole career.
How does it work when you get a pardon? If they ask you if you've ever been arrested/convicted, I assume you can't lie and say no? Seems to be a catch 22 situation: if you lie, they can deny you entry if they ever find out. If you don't lie, then what is the point of the waiver?
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by jakeandelwood » Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:09 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:03 pm
altiplano wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:49 am
Tell him not to go to the US until he gets a pardon.

With a pardon it won't be a problem from a job perspective. But the US won't recognize the pardon once the record is on their system, which it will be if you cross the border, and it will make US travel a hassle for your whole career.
How does it work when you get a pardon? If they ask you if you've ever been arrested/convicted, I assume you can't lie and say no? Seems to be a catch 22 situation: if you lie, they can deny you entry if they ever find out. If you don't lie, then what is the point of the waiver?
I asked that very question when I got my pardon and the pardon people said its like it never happened, you don't have to say a word, that may just be in Canada though. They also said they just don't give out pardons to everyone, so in my opinion be thankfull if they gave you a pardon and take full advantage of it. I don't know how that works on a border crossing though as I haven't left the country since I got my pardon but I wouldn't say anything about it at a job interview.
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Last edited by jakeandelwood on Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

digits_
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by digits_ » Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:13 pm

So if they ask you if you've er been convicted and you received your pardon, you'll answer "no", basically lie, and hope that they'll never find out?

Not trying to trick you or anyone else, just really curious how that would work out.
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by dialdriver » Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:38 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:13 pm
So if they ask you if you've er been convicted and you received your pardon, you'll answer "no", basically lie, and hope that they'll never find out?

Not trying to trick you or anyone else, just really curious how that would work out.
Get a pardon, it's easy. Your file is buried in some dark place never to be seen again. The US will never find out. Your conviction is dissolved. Just say no.

When you get stopped by the RCMP, they dont even know. It's your dirty little secret.

As someone with several pardoned convictions from a misspent youth that have no reflection on my adulthood, I know.
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by altiplano » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:06 pm

The question is: "Have you ever been convicted of an offence for which has pardon has not been granted?"

And your answer is no.

And for that matter, if it's asked any other way the answer is still no.

And arrests mean nothing.
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by complexintentions » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:49 am

altiplano wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:06 pm
The question is: "Have you ever been convicted of an offence for which has pardon has not been granted?"

And your answer is no.

And for that matter, if it's asked any other way the answer is still no.

And arrests mean nothing.
No. The wording is key. The question you quote is a Canadian legal requirement on applications to prevent discrimination on the basis of a pardoned conviction. It is not the same in non-Canadian jurisdictions.

It is definitely NOT the way a US Customs or other law enforcement/immigration official will ask it. For example, the precise wording for a UK visa application is "Have you ever been convicted of any criminal offence in the UK or any country?" It does not equivocate.

So yes, even with a Canadian pardon you will be lying if you answer no. The "good" news is you will not be caught if you have not crossed a border before the pardon has been issued.

A Canadian pardon does not actually "dissolve" records of an offence, they're simply removed from CPIC and held in a separate, private database where they cannot be accessed except by a judges order or if one reoffends with a serious crime. The pardon can be rescinded in such cases.

The US and Canada share a lot of data, and the US most certainly has access to CPIC. So if you cross the US border before a pardon is granted, they will see your DUI conviction and it will be in their system for life even after a Canadian pardon is granted - as stated, the US does not recognize Canadian criminal pardons. If you wait until after a pardon is granted to cross the border, when US Customs search CPIC they will not see the conviction because it will not be in CPIC. And yes, it's true even Canadian law enforcement will not be able to access it.

So, at that point you could say you do not have one, but make no mistake they would consider that lying if it was found out by other means.

I would also not be quite as cavalier about arrests even without convictions. The precise wording for THAT one is "Have you been arrested and charged with any offence in any country and are awaiting, or are currently on trial?" Pretty hard to answer that with anything other than yes or no.

As always seek professional legal advice if you have any doubts.

(CPIC: Canadian Police Information Centre, the national crime database)
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by altiplano » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:38 am

Cavalier?

Past arrests mean nothing if there wasn't a charge and conviction.

If you're currently charged and awaiting trial, sure that's different... but people are arrested all the time as a routine part of police investigations, or sometimes without cause, and are subsequently released. It means nothing and it isn't on your record.
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by dialdriver » Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:03 am

My file is sealed. It was 35 years ago. If some authority anywhere in the world asks me if I was ever charged, the answer is no. They will never find out. Is it a lie or is it just semantics? Dont care, the answer is no.
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by dialdriver » Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:40 am

dialdriver wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:38 pm
digits_ wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:13 pm
So if they ask you if you've er been convicted and you received your pardon, you'll answer "no", basically lie, and hope that they'll never find out?

Not trying to trick you or anyone else, just really curious how that would work out.
Get a pardon, it's easy. Your file is buried in some dark place never to be seen again. The US will never find out. Your conviction is dissolved. Just say no.

When you get stopped by the RCMP, they dont even know. It's your dirty little secret.

As someone with several pardoned convictions from a misspent youth that have no reflection on my adulthood, I know.
It'll work out just fine. The file is not accessible to anyone but the Minister of Public Safety, who rarely ever releases it, except for serious re-offences.

From www.pardon.org:

"Once I have my pardon/record suspension, if I am asked, “Have you ever been convicted of a criminal offence”, what should I say?

The government of Canada has forgiven you of your past charges. They no longer want the conviction to reflect adversely on your character, and wish to remove any disqualification to which you are subjected. It is treated as though it never happened. If an RCMP search is done your FPS# will not show up. An employer is not allowed to ask if a person has a criminal record that has been pardoned/suspended. They may only ask, “Do you have a criminal record for which a pardon/record suspension has not been granted?” The answer to that question is NO."
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by altiplano » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:23 pm

If s conviction is overturned on appeal... it's like it never happened. Same with a pardon. Just say no, you aren't lying.
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by pelmet » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:15 am

After reading stories about the US scooping up whatever info they can get their hands on.....I wonder if they might just take all the info from this CPIC database.

Then again, if there is some sort of agreement on access between Canada and the US, perhaps they would only use legitimately accessed info against someone.
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by pelmet » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:30 am

And read this about a pardon making things worse for some with old convictions with only a paper record moving to the database....

https://globalnews.ca/news/5416881/mari ... er-pardon/
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by complexintentions » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:16 pm

dialdriver wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:03 am
My file is sealed. It was 35 years ago. If some authority anywhere in the world asks me if I was ever charged, the answer is no. They will never find out. Is it a lie or is it just semantics? Dont care, the answer is no.
Well, no, despite your weak self-justification it's not "semantics" it's still a lie, just one unlikely to be found out. 35 years or no, I find cocky shits are usually the ones who end up eating their words eventually. But as long as you don't go through a messy divorce, or tell a "friend" during a drinking binge, or mention it on an "anonymous" internet forum, you should be fine. :lol:
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by dialdriver » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:55 am

Wow! Are you my new internet bully? If you can't maintain a civilized discussion, you can always resort to a personal attack. But then, most people will just avoid you - which is what I will be doing. Likely why the discussion ended. Nice job shutting down this thread. Slow clap...
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by cncpc » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:10 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:38 am
Cavalier?

Past arrests mean nothing if there wasn't a charge and conviction.

If you're currently charged and awaiting trial, sure that's different... but people are arrested all the time as a routine part of police investigations, or sometimes without cause, and are subsequently released. It means nothing and it isn't on your record.
That is definitely not correct.
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by altiplano » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:20 pm

What's not correct?

Arrests mean shit.
cncpc wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:10 pm
altiplano wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:38 am
Cavalier?

Past arrests mean nothing if there wasn't a charge and conviction.

If you're currently charged and awaiting trial, sure that's different... but people are arrested all the time as a routine part of police investigations, or sometimes without cause, and are subsequently released. It means nothing and it isn't on your record.
That is definitely not correct.
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by dialdriver » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:42 pm

altiplano wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:20 pm
What's not correct?

Arrests mean shit.
cncpc wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:10 pm
altiplano wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:38 am
Cavalier?

Past arrests mean nothing if there wasn't a charge and conviction.

If you're currently charged and awaiting trial, sure that's different... but people are arrested all the time as a routine part of police investigations, or sometimes without cause, and are subsequently released. It means nothing and it isn't on your record.
That is definitely not correct.
Don't know about arrests, but read this:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/managing-criminal-records

Non-conviction information

Non-conviction information refers to information on an individual who has been charged with a crime but not found guilty or convicted. This includes charges that were withdrawn or dismissed.

An individual's file in the National Repository of Criminal Records may include conviction and/or non-conviction records in accordance with legislation, including the Identification of Criminals Act, the Youth Criminal Justice Act and the Criminal Records Act and other applicable laws.

Non-conviction information is kept in the National Repository of Criminal Records until the individual formally requests its destruction, receives a record suspension, or until the individual reaches the age of 125.

Making a request for the destruction of non-conviction information

To make a request for the destruction of non-conviction information, you must apply to the police service that laid the original charge. If the police approves the request, it will then contact the RCMP's Canadian Criminal Real Time Identification Services (CCRTIS) to request the destruction of the non-conviction information from the National Repository of Criminal Records.

CCRTIS may refuse to destroy the non-conviction information if there are compelling reasons to deny the request. You can appeal this decision by CCRTIS by sending a letter to:

Director GeneralCanadian Criminal Real Time Identification ServicesRCMP, NPS Bldg.1200 Vanier ParkwayOttawa, OntarioK1A 0R2

When appealing a decision, you should identify if there was a factual or processing error regarding the decision, and/or provide new information that was not included in the original request submitted through your local police. You should also provide additional documents to support the appeal, such as copies of applicable Crown proceedings, police records or court documents."
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Re: Becoming a pilot with a DUI

Post by laminar » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:44 pm

The info dialdriver posted is for previous charges that didn’t lead to convictions. When you “run” someone on CPIC you’ll see what they are currently accused with (matters before trial), you’ll see what they have been convicted with, and then at the bottom of the record you’ll see what people have been previously charged but not convicted with.

Arrests with no charges do not make it onto CPIC. They will be on a local system in a report in whatever municipality did the arrest, or in a report on the RCMP records management program “EPROS”, or maybe won’t be on any system and written on a few lines in an officers notebook stuffed away in an evidence locker somewhere.
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