What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by ajet32 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:19 pm

Don't know who some of you self appointed and self righteous super pilots are but I have flown with a few. I am now training on the most advanced aircraft I have ever had the pleasure to sit in. I do know that some years back several super pilots tried very hard to sewer my career. Well I kept at it and now will soon be both an instructor and ACP on what I believe is the most advanced aircraft ever produced in Canada and for that matter maybe the world.
As an ACP/Check Airman I have seen some pretty super smug pilots go wandering down the path of destruction. Some even when the weak FO, SO was trying to prevent it. So I would say best advice; let the regulator and the training departments/checking folks determine what happens. I doubt you have the full picture and assisting in destroying someones career will not end well for you. If you aren't sued you will get a name that wont help you down the road. No one wants to sit with someone who they think is always looking for a way ahead through their mistakes. Oh and we all make them, daily.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Capt. Underpants » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:30 pm

rigpiggy wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:12 pm
trust me someone in mgmt will know, and they will brush it under the carpet...... because if the front seats aren't filled it isn't going anywhere
I've worked in a fair number of outfits over the last 40+ years and can honestly say I only saw management behave in this way at one of them. In that case, the tune quickly changed when an accident happened involving a new hire who wasn't competent.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by flying4dollars » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:36 pm

digits_ wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:19 pm
corethatthermal wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:48 pm
I would never condone slandering another human in the workplace or giving out a bad/negative reference. I have however seen the systems in place through the training departments work to remove these individuals from the operating environment or keeping them in a first officers position indefinitely.
YOU are not part of the solution but part of the problem ! Your "old boys club" mentality will get innocent people killed !
I suppose you would say : "Well Bill is an OK co-pilot AND he has a wonderful personality and always helps out individuals" (( BUT you would NEVER allow your family to ride in the back of a plane where he is Single PIC! Hypocrite !))
It's not that easy. Are you willing to destroy someone's career at 2000 hours because you don't think they will improve at some point?
The example stated was an FO. What experience did he have before? Straight into an FO job from flight school? Who trained him? What is the problem precisely? Is the FO afraid to speak up? To be rushed? What if the problem is the interaction between the CPT and the FO? Are there any CPTs that are happy with the FO's performance?

Not every pilot needs to be a captain at some day either. Some people can function as an FO indefinitely, some will most likely be happy in that position as well.

However, if the pilot does not perform up to standards, then that should be reported. SMS might be an empty shell at some companies, but even there I hope someone will at least read it and look into it.

It surely is a tough decision.
I get where you're coming from with that statement but disagree. Essentially the copilot serves one of 2 functions beyond just being there to assist the PIC. When you are a first officer, you are (and should be) a captain in training. Second, when you are a first officer, you become pilot in command should the PIC become incapacitated. That being said, you should have a level of competency that would allow you to step into that role in the unlikely event something should happen to the captain.

When I did line indoc, one factor in a lot of my decisions on whether I'd sign the guy off or not was "can he safely bring this bird down in the event I become incapacitated. If the answer was yes, he's got a sig. If it's not, he doesn't get signed off. There are of course other considerations, but you get the gist.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by shimmydampner » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:06 pm

ajet32 wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:19 pm
ssisting in destroying someones career will not end well for you
I don't think anyone here is advocating "destroying someone's career" just for the sake of doing it. It sounds to me like there is a genuine safety concern, and if that is the case, I believe it should be brought forward through the correct channels and dealt with in the correct manner. Unfortunately, someone's feelings may have to get hurt, ego bruised and a career may be a casualty of that process, but not everyone is cut out to be a pilot. There is too much at stake to tolerate incompetence.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by oldtimer » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:57 pm

I good discussion on the actions someone should or can take when crewed with a less than stellar pilot but any suggestions when one comes across a totally incompetent private pilot who is flying his own airplane. Especially when you see him/her loading trusting passengers. I knew of a couple of private pilots who were a total mess. One flew a single place airplane in a reckless manner but survived and another who flew a wreck of an airplane in weather when others stayed put. Unfortunately he did not survive.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by jakeandelwood » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:40 am

What do you do in the case of a pilot who is an awesome pilot but constantly pushes weather (and promoted it), takes risks, screw the checklist we're 1 minute behind and is a "get er done" company man? The company loves him and he just happens to be the Chief pilot.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:03 pm

jakeandelwood wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:40 am
What do you do in the case of a pilot who is an awesome pilot but constantly pushes weather (and promoted it), takes risks, screw the checklist we're 1 minute behind and is a "get er done" company man? The company loves him and he just happens to be the Chief pilot.
If the company is big enough, anon sms and get out of there.

S.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:06 pm

screw the checklist we're 1 minute behind and is a "get er done" company man? The company loves him and he just happens to be the Chief pilot.
Tell him you will not fly with him and you are quitting and want to go back to the parking area.

If he refuses stop the engines and get off the airplane.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by switchflicker » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:19 pm

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:03 pm
jakeandelwood wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:40 am
What do you do in the case of a pilot who is an awesome pilot but constantly pushes weather (and promoted it), takes risks, screw the checklist we're 1 minute behind and is a "get er done" company man? The company loves him and he just happens to be the Chief pilot.
If the company is big enough, anon sms and get out of there.

S.
First - talk to him about your concerns and if no joy,
Second do the SMS report thing and hope for some positive action
Third DON'T wait until you are in the A/C and taxiing to tell him that you don't want to fly with him and that you are quitting and want to go back to the parking area. Grab some class and do your quitting without involving dispatch, ATC and of course the reason we fly... The Passengers.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:31 pm

First - talk to him about your concerns and if no joy,
How stupid of me not to have thought of that.
What do you do in the case of a pilot who is an awesome pilot but constantly pushes weather (and promoted it), takes risks, screw the checklist we're 1 minute behind and is a "get er done" company man? The company loves him and he just happens to be the Chief pilot.
Considering what the original poster said in the above quote that should work like a charm.

Oh well considering I am getting old and getting a bit senile I hope you will cut me some slack. :prayer:
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by corethatthermal » Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:15 pm

CWE Your last post was priceless Brought a smile to my face thanks !
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:23 pm

CWE Your last post was priceless Brought a smile to my face thanks !
Thanks.

The truth is I hold these types of people in utter contempt because they demean our profession by deliberately circumventing the rules and by putting the public in unnecessary danger.

It is even more egregious for so called chief pilots to flaunt the rules.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by SRV » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:15 pm

ajet32 wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:19 pm
Don't know who some of you self appointed and self righteous super pilots are but I have flown with a few. I am now training on the most advanced aircraft I have ever had the pleasure to sit in. I do know that some years back several super pilots tried very hard to sewer my career. Well I kept at it and now will soon be both an instructor and ACP on what I believe is the most advanced aircraft ever produced in Canada and for that matter maybe the world.
As an ACP/Check Airman I have seen some pretty super smug pilots go wandering down the path of destruction. Some even when the weak FO, SO was trying to prevent it. So I would say best advice; let the regulator and the training departments/checking folks determine what happens. I doubt you have the full picture and assisting in destroying someones career will not end well for you. If you aren't sued you will get a name that wont help you down the road. No one wants to sit with someone who they think is always looking for a way ahead through their mistakes. Oh and we all make them, daily.

I sure hope I never have the displeasure of dealing with your super advanced ego on a check ride...sounds like you should get used to the TATC process Mr. ACP/check airman...
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by jakeandelwood » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:17 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:06 pm
screw the checklist we're 1 minute behind and is a "get er done" company man? The company loves him and he just happens to be the Chief pilot.
Tell him you will not fly with him and you are quitting and want to go back to the parking area.

If he refuses stop the engines and get off the airplane.
At the time I wouldn't dare do that, but 12 years later I totally would. Funny how as you get older you put up with less BS
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by lownslow » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:04 am

Anyone nervous this thread is about them?
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by valleyboy » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:37 am

Nope it's always the other guy all pilots are the best -- just ask them or try and train them !!!!!
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by AuxBatOn » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:30 am

jakeandelwood wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:40 am
What do you do in the case of a pilot who is an awesome pilot but constantly pushes weather (and promoted it), takes risks, screw the checklist we're 1 minute behind and is a "get er done" company man? The company loves him and he just happens to be the Chief pilot.
Is he busting weather limits or is he merely going in legal but marginal weather? What kind of risk is he taking (by the way, you are taking risks every day by flying and airplane. It’s a matter of whet her or not you have the authority to take that risk)? Being a “get er done” type isn’t necessarily bad, as long as rules are adhered to and smart airmanship is applied while assessing risk vs reward.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:53 pm

-Approach minimums are a personal limitation.
-Barber pole is a target, not a limit.
-MTOW weight is just a suggestion.
-Icing is slippery, so makes the plane fly faster.
-WAAS gives you an ILS everywhere.
-What do you need the second inverter for (or any other important redundant systen)
-Just have them fill up the O2 when you get back
-The rules are designed for the lowest common denominator

Usually said by below average pilots/scummy managers
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Alav » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:28 pm

Non cockpit experience talking here.

Remember the saying - anytime you point the finger at someone there's 3 pointed back at you?

Construction industry, I used to bitch and moan about the sh++y arse helpers/apprentices they assigned me with. I clued in one day - the kid I was 'stuck' with was completely useless. Bounced between all the crews, everyone's last choice, had been there 6+ months at that point. Useless at bits on a pull.

Nobody ever took the time to teach him. Do you know what we're doing here? Do you know what our next step needs to be? What are the hazards of what you're doing right now?

Which then he started catching on... Then the theory discussions started happening. The comprehension and his abilities skyrocketed. 20 years later he's a top wrench moving into management.

I'm no commercial pilot, but I really wonder some days how much has been lost of the old training practices. Even attitudes in this thread does point that maybe this CRM training you guys do - may be lacking some basics...
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Capt. Underpants » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:03 pm

Alav wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:28 pm
I'm no commercial pilot, but I really wonder some days how much has been lost of the old training practices. Even attitudes in this thread does point that maybe this CRM training you guys do - may be lacking some basics...
That's a bit of a double-edged sword. Assuming we're talking a larger operator, they have a training and standards group who are supposed to put pilots on the line who are qualified - and safe. Line pilots shouldn't be there to supplement that system when it lets unsafe people through. But they must have a way to advise that department of their concerns when they show through.

Many line captains are great teachers by example. You feel part of a team and you learn by watching them work. Then there are the few who spend their time trying to prove they know more than you. They demand that their techniques be the SOP and fly the airplane with their mouth on your leg. Any FO who'd dare stand up to them is immediately branded a problem child. I'm not saying that's the case here, but I've seen it happen.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Alav » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:19 pm

But your FTU is like an apprenticeship school year. Starts the basis of the knowledge - you spend the next 6-9months out in the field applying that knowledge, on the job learning and gaining more skills.

You don't go to a flight school and come out ready to fly a 787, it's very much an apprenticeship like education. FTU is the basic school part, where you prove you understand the basics, that right seat time is where you're actually gaining the experience and learning
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:34 pm

Yes, most people are honestly trying to improve. Just need to try different avenues and mentoring techniques. I find it very rewarding to see a weak FO make steady improvement. It's fantastic to see them rock the captain upgrade and now mentoring new FOs. A slow/weak start doesn't mean they won't turn out to be superb pilots.

I had one FO say that they were good enough and were going to coast... Somebody who snuck though every evaluation at the bare minimum standard, now decided they were good enough and didn't try to improve. This was at 2000-3000tt as well. How do you teach or mentor with that attitude? Some people shouldn't make it as a career, but generally it's because they don't want to devote the required effort to make it.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by jakeandelwood » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:06 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:30 am
jakeandelwood wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:40 am
What do you do in the case of a pilot who is an awesome pilot but constantly pushes weather (and promoted it), takes risks, screw the checklist we're 1 minute behind and is a "get er done" company man? The company loves him and he just happens to be the Chief pilot.
Is he busting weather limits or is he merely going in legal but marginal weather? What kind of risk is he taking (by the way, you are taking risks every day by flying and airplane. It’s a matter of whet her or not you have the authority to take that risk)? Being a “get er done” type isn’t necessarily bad, as long as rules are adhered to and smart airmanship is applied while assessing risk vs reward.
I was flying with him on an approach, I can't remember if it was a NDB or a GPS, non precision anyway, he said " you can safely go 200' below minimums on this approach" I didn't really know how to respond I just said "yes YOU could"
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rwm1273 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:07 am

rigpiggy wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:12 pm
trust me someone in mgmt will know, and they will brush it under the carpet...... because if the front seats aren't filled it isn't going anywhere
I suspect with much of this person's experience, it has been just to ensure there was a warm body in the copilot seat.

As to other questions, yes I did speak with the FO and I spent a fair amount of time trying to explain the aircraft and provided plenty of examples of errors and the possible consequences. There is no point when the hamster is dead.

And to add to this, this individual uses their special standing in our society to blame others for their mistakes and to explain why they have not gotten an upgrade. when you are of that character and have a history of destroying other people's careers when you do get washed out (as has happened at a few previous companies with this person) you really need to take serious precautions to protect yourself from any false accusations.

As for being told to find another career, I have been informed by a few of this individual's instructors that they would not continue to train this person and they should look at finding another profession. Well this person eventually did pass, and now is working in the industry, and might be flying with you next.

As for it being difficult to learn a new type, this does not explain issues such as handling the radios which this person has no clue. For example, this individual made not one but 3 radios calls to say "Rolling" when we were in a backtrack on an uncontrolled field but there was another aircraft on approach. I could provide many more examples, but I think this is one where even after explaining the situation and the consequences this individual didn't think it was a big deal.

All I'm saying is this person should not be flying. And I doubt more training would help. It didn't in the 9 months this person was flying for us. You can only explain so many times how to start the APU to someone before you realize they will never understand it.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rwm1273 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:13 am

Alav wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:28 pm


Nobody ever took the time to teach him. Do you know what we're doing here? Do you know what our next step needs to be? What are the hazards of what you're doing right now?

With some there is no way to teach. Trust me, if you fly with the person I'm posting about, you will understand. It will be a real eye-opener that this person has gotten so far in their career.
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