What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

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ant_321
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by ant_321 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:54 am

We’ve all flown with one or two of these guys. If you’re at a reputable company you can report it to the training department or SMS it. If others do the same it will probably be taken care of. At a smaller or sketchy operation there isn’t much you can do other than talk to them and management about it and if nothing gets done just refuse to fly with the person. I’ve flown with 3 guys in my career who I felt really should do something else. One did realize it wasn’t for them, one is still slogging along in the right seat of a turbo prop at about 8k total time (what I’ve been told anyway) and another is now a captain at Air Canada. I like to believe that the guy who eventually ended up at AC was just a late bloomer who eventually figured it out. With that said, if I show up to an AC flight and see him in the cockpit I’m not sure I would take my family on board.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rwm1273 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:18 pm

ant_321 wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:54 am
With that said, if I show up to an AC flight and see him in the cockpit I’m not sure I would take my family on board.
My concern isn't just for the passengers on that flight, but the schools, hospitals, and towns they fly over.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Alav » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:02 pm

rwm1273 wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:13 am
With some there is no way to teach. Trust me, if you fly with the person I'm posting about, you will understand. It will be a real eye-opener that this person has gotten so far in their career.
Kinda goes back to my initial post.

Clearly this person can learn - as he's managed to progress to this point.

The challenge is for you to understand how they learn and adjust how you teach so they do learn...

So you've shown him 1000x how to start an APU... And still can't.

So - if only there was a book close at hand with the procedure for this task...

Some people need to see it written down - not everyone processes verbal communication the same, so next time you fly with said person - instruct to grab POH - open to and follow the procedure "start APU" repeat until he doesn't need the POH. If there's a slip - back to grab POH as first step.

Anytime one of my crew of trainees even 20+ years later has an issue. I'm the first phone call, I want to know about it, I want to resolve it and reinforce the training they got. I don't even work in that industry anymore...
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by digits_ » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:12 pm

rwm1273 wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:18 pm
ant_321 wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:54 am
With that said, if I show up to an AC flight and see him in the cockpit I’m not sure I would take my family on board.
My concern isn't just for the passengers on that flight, but the schools, hospitals, and towns they fly over.
I think the schools and hospitals would be more likely to collapse due to an incompetent contractor/construction crew than an incompetent pilot who happens to hit that particular building.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by C.W.E. » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:55 pm

The challenge is for you to understand how they learn and adjust how you teach so they do learn...
Things sure have changed since I retired.

I can not recall having flown for any company that required me to teach an F.O. how to fly.

If they did insist I teach them I would have charged them my normal fee for teaching flying, $250.00 Euro per hour.
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Last edited by C.W.E. on Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rookiepilot » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:18 pm

rwm1273 wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:07 am

I suspect with much of this person's experience, it has been just to ensure there was a warm body in the copilot seat.
So -- not unlike drivers who plop a dummy blow up doll in the passenger seat so they can drive in the HOV lane?

Why does my cynical side suspect this isn't completely uncommon in commercial aviation -- "snort" :roll:
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Alav » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:48 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:55 pm
The challenge is for you to understand how they learn and adjust how you teach so they do learn...
Things sure have changed since I retired.

I can not recall having flown for any company that required me to teach an F.O. how to fly.

If they did insist I teach them I would have charged them my normal fee for teaching flying, $250.00 Euro per hour.
"The growth and development of people is the highest calling of leadership." Henry S Firestone.

If you don't understand that command/leadership involves a need to instruct and educate those 'beneath' you...
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by valleyboy » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:08 am

The total irony here that, over the years I have had such input from other captains about a particular pilot. I also have flown with the F/O they are telling me and saying that the guy should never be allowed in and aircraft. I did not have an issue and the person(s) in question was able to function within set standards.

My point being is that the attitude that the captain carriers into the flight deck has a large being on how a crew operates. What the captain projects sets the mood. If a crew member feels pressure and sees aggressive body language they might just start "shutting down" which just adds to the stress and it becomes a caustic and unsafe environment.

As I have mentioned before the attitude of "good old boys", captain gods is alive and well and alive in the new generation of pilot. CRM and crew concept is just not something they understand. It's quite horrifying to see new green captains fall into this mind set. Can attitudes ever be changed when pilots fall into this group.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by digits_ » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:11 am

valleyboy wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:08 am
The total irony here that, over the years I have had such input from other captains about a particular pilot. I also have flown with the F/O they are telling me and saying that the guy should never be allowed in and aircraft. I did not have an issue and the person(s) in question was able to function within set standards.

My point being is that the attitude that the captain carriers into the flight deck has a large being on how a crew operates. What the captain projects sets the mood. If a crew member feels pressure and sees aggressive body language they might just start "shutting down" which just adds to the stress and it becomes a caustic and unsafe environment.

As I have mentioned before the attitude of "good old boys", captain gods is alive and well and alive in the new generation of pilot. CRM and crew concept is just not something they understand. It's quite horrifying to see new green captains fall into this mind set. Can attitudes ever be changed when pilots fall into this group.
I completely agree with everything you've written, but even if you change your attitude as a captain, there will still be people that make you wonder how they even passed their PPL checkride. Some are very good in memorizing what is necessary to pass the checkrides, but shut down when some creativity or improvising is required. Others lack the ability to stay focused for longer period of times. Some just don't care.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:02 am

I generally bring most issues to the attention of the training department or chief pilot. However, in my career I've only met one person who should consider another career.

This person actually got along well with the "good old boys club" style captains. Needed to be told when to slow down, too high/low on descent, slow on approach, tried ordering too little fuel because "then we'll have to bump stuff". This person got along great with the captains who told them exactly what to do and when, basically a voice controlled autopilot/autothrottle. God forbid someone should try to mentor this person, it never went well.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rwm1273 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:52 am

valleyboy wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:08 am
The total irony here that, over the years I have had such input from other captains about a particular pilot. I also have flown with the F/O they are telling me and saying that the guy should never be allowed in and aircraft. I did not have an issue and the person(s) in question was able to function within set standards.

My point being is that the attitude that the captain carriers into the flight deck has a large being on how a crew operates. What the captain projects sets the mood. If a crew member feels pressure and sees aggressive body language they might just start "shutting down" which just adds to the stress and it becomes a caustic and unsafe environment.

As I have mentioned before the attitude of "good old boys", captain gods is alive and well and alive in the new generation of pilot. CRM and crew concept is just not something they understand. It's quite horrifying to see new green captains fall into this mind set. Can attitudes ever be changed when pilots fall into this group.
All legitimate points, but when everyone involved in the company has a similar opinion about this particular pilot, then it isn't an issue with the captain, but clearly an issue with the one pilot in question. This pilot even was difficult with the engineers who have substantial amounts of experience both in and out of the cockpit.

So we are back to the underlying question, how do you ensure this person finds a new career?
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by valleyboy » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:56 pm

Short of poking his eye out you need to write him up and unless this is a real bottom feeder company the training department, must deal with it. If he has the ability to pass training, get recommended for a ride and consistently pass that ride it is not an ability issue but a mental one. At the very least the chief pilot or chief training pilot should fly with him on the line for a full schedule. If the company is so small that one guy wears all these hats and nothing gets done I would suggest leave. It would likely be better for your career. If this guy is a bad as you say all the captains should make it clear that they are united in this.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by C.W.E. » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:14 pm

. If the company is so small that one guy wears all these hats and nothing gets done I would suggest leave. It would likely be better for your career. If this guy is a bad as you say all the captains should make it clear that they are united in this.
That is the bottom line in this discussion.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by BCnomad » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:13 pm

Well It is sad day in aviation for sure. Unfortunately, someone sent me a photo of someone that is exactly that person that should never fly a plane or even be in one. And guess what? After being hired and trained and failing and being told to improve and being helped by every good soul in each company this waste of skin continues to fool the unfortunate one's by having the most friendly and eager personality making one think that this "person" is a great fit. And guess what? Hired again to fly in a 705 operation in special parts of the world. The reality is that this same person BELIEVES they are capable and continues to forge ahead in a career that requires aptitude and ability. The fact is that they are not good at what they do, have used every trick in the book to get ahead including lying about their past employment and training experience. To the point that they would remove hours so that the next victim would think there is a clean slate. Before I go on I will say this so that the one's saying we should help the Co-pilot out before we send them packing. I totally agree. We are only human and not all of us are born to be awesome at something we like or love to do. Even if we do get past our first PPC there is always that chance that we will F&8*$k it up and have to do some extra training. I applaud anyone that takes the time to put an extra effort into helping out a fellow pilot just starting or maybe having a rough patch in their career.

This person is not that. This person does have the 2000+ hours and I have flown with this person, trained and line checked this person. My god it was the most frustrating and tormenting event to watch someone that believed they knew how to do it but had no capability to retain the simplest of tasks. When I mean simple I meant simple. After six months still not able to turn on the APU. This is after doing an initial with extra training and then flying the aircraft for a number of hours. No situational awareness what so ever. You might as well be riding with a deer in headlights. After all this training and mentoring which this "person" received by many individuals in different companies and many "breaks" it continued to under perform even though making mass volumes of notes and spending "hours" studying the material. One would expect a person with 2000+ hours to at least turn in the right direction for the destination or at least hold the track out bound and not drift 30 degrees the wrong way. And this on a clear day. Line check turned out to be flying "101" No joke P.A.T.

The worst part about this individual is that if things went well in the company and you happen to be in that company and you happen to be "friends" with this person... no problem. But as soon as this one did not get what it wanted there would suddenly be inter employee issues, personal attacks, vicious rumours about fellow employees. At one point I was informed that one of our crew while away from base was hooking to make some $$. Not true and started by this same person. In other words if this so called pilot who claimed to know how to do it and what to do did not get it's way and was being told by others to study more or improve in certain areas... suddenly HR would get notes. It was never the problem of the individual - it was always someone else that caused the problem. Oh and remember all those people that helped out this person. Well if the story came from the person that helped or someone that new the helper you would think - wow you took a lot of extra time out to help that person. But if you heard the same scenario from this particular person about the ones that helped, The story would be the opposite. The story would be that "I asked for help but they were such assholes" This is not a sound individual.

I have met 100s of great people in this career, but this person makes me think Why? Why did I and why did many others bother to learn to study and to practice, when all you have to do is falsify your past, denny everything, retain nothing, blame others, try to ruin relationships, and use whatever legal HR tool available to get your way. After seeing that his person has been hired once again I had to shake my head and question how the F&&*K did this person make it this far. How many people have witnessed this absolute disaster make it from one place to another only to be given another chance. There has to be a point where the authority says enough is enough. They can do it with your medical why not with your ability?

Just as a note - Yes I did make notes and informed our hire ups about this person.. Due to corporate restructuring the issue was never addressed. How fortunate for this person - "one" can denny this whole story if it ever comes up at the next interview.

We are always going to have great pilots, average pilots and not so great pilots. We are only human. But there has to be a minimum that one must achieve in order to make the grade. It is a slap in the face to the ones out there that put the hard work into this career. Someone of this nature does not deserve that recognition and or opportunity.

So what do you do? At first I would help to see if the person is capable and is willing. If that is the case then by all means help them out and give them the support. But if it is a case where it is obvious that this person is a safety risk. Speak to the CP, the trainers, and if necessary write safety reports or go to HR. Think about it: how many courses and videos are out there telling us how to be professional, SMS, CFIT, Fatigue etc etc. This is no different. If the person is a risk then it should be dealt with.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by northernpilot2 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:13 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:53 pm
-Approach minimums are a personal limitation.
-Barber pole is a target, not a limit.
-MTOW weight is just a suggestion.
-Icing is slippery, so makes the plane fly faster.
-WAAS gives you an ILS everywhere.
-What do you need the second inverter for (or any other important redundant systen)
-Just have them fill up the O2 when you get back
-The rules are designed for the lowest common denominator

Usually said by below average pilots/scummy managers
This sounds like some of the crazies that fly up north. I've seen a few in my time with these characteristics.

Take the PC-12 for example, one of the pilot's told me that on takeoff we need to climb high as fast as possible in case the engine fails. An hour later when we were out in the bush, the pilot is flying 300 ft AGL trying to show me how to have some fun up there in VFR (they think the 300-1 ops spec is a good thing). For some reason, the engine will probably not fail at that specific time I guess.

Thankfully I'm not up there anymore, flying overseas at the moment.

I'm not demeaning anyone who fly's up north, but there are a few that I know up there who should find other things to do.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by KAG » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:48 am

rwm1273 wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:33 pm
I recently worked with a copilot that was by far the most incompetent person I have ever had the misfortune of working with. Utterly terrible at flying, had no idea what they were doing, and despite having over 2200hrs in flight time, I think most of it was spent being told to sit down and don't touch anything.

Everyone else who has known this person has similar stories to tell. They have all spread the word not to hire this person. But what else can be done? I truly feel that this person will make a smoking hole one day, and not know why.
Thats a tough call. I have come across some (very) weak pilots, some who also wouldn't listen. Thats the key - does this person accept criticism? If they have have a positive attitude and a willingness to learn, they'll be fine. If not there no helping them.
That attitude of not to touch anything is an old school mentality that doesn't really work anymore. Your job is to teach, mentor, guide, as well as fly the plane. I say this because Im flying with more and more lower experienced pilots, and thats fine. It's all about the attitude.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by corethatthermal » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:35 am

BCnomad, I have a sneaky suspicion that this "person" is a female but due to political correctness, I guess we can never say ?
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by BCnomad » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:46 am

corethatthermal wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:35 am
BCnomad, I have a sneaky suspicion that this "person" is a female but due to political correctness, I guess we can never say ?
As I said. There is a vast majority of great people in this industry. This is not one of them. Male or female this one only does a disservice to all of the hard working individuals that have put the time and effort into where they are now. Not only a disservice but is a safety concern. Personally I don't care what gender persuasion you lean towards or maybe your some where in the middle. What counts is whether or not you have the right attitude, aptitude, integrity, etc etc. The qualities that hope that we all have and hope that our coworkers / friends have. There is no room for a "person" of this nature anywhere.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rwm1273 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:34 am

corethatthermal wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:35 am
BCnomad, I have a sneaky suspicion that this "person" is a female but due to political correctness, I guess we can never say ?
Bingo, you win the prize. So now we get a bit of an understanding of why this individual may have been given some preferential treatment to gain the hours they have.

I have worked with some amazing women in my career, all made it to where they are by doing the job as professionally as can be expected. I would never question the authority or skills of a person just because they were female.

However, with the individual at the point of this thread, they have proven countless times that not everyone is capable and that there are certain people who will take advantage of everyone and everything to get ahead.

One of my first interactions with this person was when they were informing me they were writing a book on "patriarchy in aviation" and I was asked if I knew any women in aviation (Captains) and how they got there. I was straight to the point when I said I knew several, and they all got there due to their skills and competency. This individual was disappointed in that comment and said it was not their experience. A few days later after we had a chance to fly I realized that this person was not getting ahead because of their utter lack of skill, and later also partly due to their character. A month later and I was very happy to purchase a plane ticket to have this person leave the operation and I physically ensured they got on their flight home. Nobody else was willing to deal with this person almost to the point that they refused to be in the same room alone for any reason.

All I can say is I fear for those who have to fly with this person, and since I have heard they will be flying again in an overseas operation, I hope they watch their backs around this person because they will get stabbed and have their career ruined by this evil manipulative person.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by digits_ » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:51 am

BCnomad wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:13 pm

This person is not that. This person does have the 2000+ hours and I have flown with this person, trained and line checked this person. My god it was the most frustrating and tormenting event to watch someone that believed they knew how to do it but had no capability to retain the simplest of tasks.
Your comments seem to hint you were the examiner/check pilot.
Then why did you let her pass?
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rookiepilot » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:06 am

digits_ wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:51 am
BCnomad wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:13 pm

This person is not that. This person does have the 2000+ hours and I have flown with this person, trained and line checked this person. My god it was the most frustrating and tormenting event to watch someone that believed they knew how to do it but had no capability to retain the simplest of tasks.
Your comments seem to hint you were the examiner/check pilot.
Then why did you let her pass?
A desire to avoid human rights commission?
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by digits_ » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:10 am

rookiepilot wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:06 am
digits_ wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:51 am
BCnomad wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:13 pm

This person is not that. This person does have the 2000+ hours and I have flown with this person, trained and line checked this person. My god it was the most frustrating and tormenting event to watch someone that believed they knew how to do it but had no capability to retain the simplest of tasks.
Your comments seem to hint you were the examiner/check pilot.
Then why did you let her pass?
A desire to avoid human rights commission?
Nice try, but no. Record it if you have to. As a check pilot it is your duty to fail peole like this. A lot of it has grey areas, but if you can't operate a vital system of your airplane (APU), it's pretty clear she should fail. Especially if she's that bad you feel like you have to post on avcanada for advice...
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rookiepilot » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:53 am

Have you seen what the human rights commission, in its wisdom, decides to investigate in this country?
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by BCnomad » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:25 pm

digits_ wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:51 am
BCnomad wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:13 pm

This person is not that. This person does have the 2000+ hours and I have flown with this person, trained and line checked this person. My god it was the most frustrating and tormenting event to watch someone that believed they knew how to do it but had no capability to retain the simplest of tasks.
Your comments seem to hint you were the examiner/check pilot.
Then why did you let her pass?
Well Mr Digits if you had read the whole story you would have noted that I did inform the hire ups and I never said that I passed this person. In fact this person never completed the line check. So before you assume what happened please read what was written. You are correct I did line training and checking and I wrote very clear and fair comments on this individual. I also informed the hire ups that this person is in no way suited for this. As I said as well there was management / corporate change so this never got addressed. In other words this person got a free pass and has been able to move on and get another job... Furthermore I am not looking for advice.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by digits_ » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:29 pm

BCnomad wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:25 pm
digits_ wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:51 am
BCnomad wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:13 pm

This person is not that. This person does have the 2000+ hours and I have flown with this person, trained and line checked this person. My god it was the most frustrating and tormenting event to watch someone that believed they knew how to do it but had no capability to retain the simplest of tasks.
Your comments seem to hint you were the examiner/check pilot.
Then why did you let her pass?
Well Mr Digits if you had read the whole story you would have noted that I did inform the hire ups and I never said that I passed this person. In fact this person never completed the line check. So before you assume what happened please read what was written. You are correct I did line training and checking and I wrote very clear and fair comments on this individual. I also informed the hire ups that this person is in no way suited for this. As I said as well there was management / corporate change so this never got addressed. In other words this person got a free pass and has been able to move on and get another job... Furthermore I am not looking for advice.
Ah my apologies, I misunderstood.
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