What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

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rwm1273
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rwm1273 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:39 pm

digits_ wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:12 pm


I think the schools and hospitals would be more likely to collapse due to an incompetent contractor/construction crew than an incompetent pilot who happens to hit that particular building.
Well depends on the size of aircraft, and this person is flying 705 category aircraft. Even a small one will make a pretty large dent in a building.
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corethatthermal
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by corethatthermal » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:25 pm

I recall a certain FEMALE fighter pilot who was incompetent and moved through until she killed herself on approach to an A/C carrier. Please correct me if I am wrong. I fully support women in aviation HOWEVER, the PC, gender favoritism , race favoritism, handicap favoritism etc has gone too far and it is going to lead to accidents, incidents and the erosion of basic EQUAL rights among citizens of this country !
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by BCnomad » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:08 pm

core that thermal - This is not a gender issue. This is strictly a complete incompetence issue. The core of this is that someone has been able to move from one place to another and slips through interview bcz that person lies, manipulates, creates false stories, spreads garbage, on top of not knowing a thing about what the job entails. Although this person tells everyone that they are quite capable. employers later find out that this is pandora's box of trouble. People that have worked with this person will know full well who it is, and unfortunately future people that will work with this person will find out later how diabolical one is. I am sure a book could be written about this person's incompetence and vicious behaviour.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by DanWEC » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:34 am

Without a doubt some of the best students I've had, as well as the best flight crews I've worked with have been female- Captains and FO's.
Might have something to do with having to prove themselves outside of their minority, yet doing so without machismo. It just translates into real competence and skill.
On average, I'd rate female pilots higher than males, just a fact based on what I've experienced. I've honestly never met a horrible female pilot or one I dreaded hours in the deck with. Fucking weird actually.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rookiepilot » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:02 am

We live In a society-- peoplekind -- where anyone can spin their gross incompetence and bring a government funded -- human rights complaint for racism, sexism, or any other kind of ism.

Anyone can run to the media and destroy someone's life with unfounded accusations.

Based purely on their say so. "Believe all Victims"

That's why smart companies document everything, have witnesses in key meetings, proceed very carefully.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by iflyforpie » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:28 pm

There but for the grace of god go I.
Kind of like how I’ve survived 10 ‘destructions’ of our country so far and will surely survive another one this October, the number of times I’ve heard of pilots who shouldn’t fly and been told so myself are almost beyond hyperbole.

It takes a lot to screw up in an airplane. I’ve never been able to fully correlate previous incompetence with a disastrous result nor have I seen previous demonstrations of full competence deter a momentary lapse or bad luck which resulted in a crash due to pilot error.

There’s always two sides to a story, and nearly as often as I’ve seen someone bumbling and feeling their way through flying I’ve also seen overbearing captains and management expecting cookie cutter SOPs, micromanaging, and otherwise not letting situations develop that require deliberate action by the other pilot which may come at a point well after yours—but still not jeopardize safety.

Line indoc doesn’t mean training ends. It’s only begun. I taught my training captains things they never knew. The important thing is to foster an atmosphere where input is not only encouraged but expected, but all too many times the FO is just along for the ride and can’t make decisions because they were either deliberately or inadvertently excluded from them.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

BCnomad
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by BCnomad » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:31 pm

Iflieforpie. Thanks for adding your two cents and basically saying we don’t know what were talking about. This is not one event or a few events bcz someone is having a bad day. This is over a period of years. There is a history of hiring and firing and BSing one’s way from one place to another. Read the post.

This is not an individual that had overbearing captains or hard SOPs. This is an individual that was helped many times and in the end still could not do it. Plane and simple

If you feel so inclined to help this one out - go ahead. But don’t come crying the blues later.
:-)
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by iflyforpie » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:52 pm

Like I said, hyperbole.

Stop looking for validation here and either do what’s required or stop whining. The very fact that it’s a question tells me that it’s not serious.
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rwm1273
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rwm1273 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:27 pm

iflyforpie wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:52 pm
Like I said, hyperbole.

Stop looking for validation here and either do what’s required or stop whining. The very fact that it’s a question tells me that it’s not serious.
I posted the topic because this person has just been hired by a new company and I would never recommend this person ever step foot into a cockpit as flight crew.

If you had actually read the thread, you would realize that there are numerous people who have first-hand experience with this person, and all came to the same conclusion. The question is valid, what avenues do you have to put a stop to someone who truly should not fly. If it makes it easier for you to comprehend, think of it as the type of choice you have trying to get an elderly person from driving once their skills deteriorated to a point they are dangerous.

The only real difference is this person isn't elderly and has never been competent from my understanding. Over 500hrs just to get their PPL and this was after being told by more than one flight school to find a new occupation.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by corethatthermal » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:00 pm

Over 500hrs just to get their PPL and this was after being told by more than one flight school to find a new occupation.
The germanwings pilot who committed suicide but decided to do it in a fully loaded aircraft did not report his suicidal tendencies to the airline BUT one would imagine that MANY in the chain would have known and could have reported it. If the pilot was reported, he still kept his job. In our advanced, liberal world, we wait till the smoking hole in the ground to enact legislation, laws, rules etc to try to prevent the next obvious accident waiting to happen !
This female pilot (if all reports are correct) is already GUILTY of being in aviation and the innocent need to suffer before anything is done. As an illegal immigrant has to commit multiple murders in order to be deported, or imprisoned ( mentally ill of course ) She will need to kill some passengers in order to be barred from piloting ANY aircraft !
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by BCnomad » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:24 pm

Corethatthermal - agreed.. More time is spent on justifying the 1% and not looking at the consequences of making sure a standard is met and if not then dealing with it.

Flie in the pie.. I have to wonder who is looking for validation here with over 7000 posts. You must know everything to be so dismissive. You were not there and frankly have no perspective on this except your tower.. Enjoy
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rwm1273 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:56 am

corethatthermal wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:00 pm
Over 500hrs just to get their PPL and this was after being told by more than one flight school to find a new occupation.
The germanwings pilot who committed suicide but decided to do it in a fully loaded aircraft did not report his suicidal tendencies to the airline BUT one would imagine that MANY in the chain would have known and could have reported it. If the pilot was reported, he still kept his job. In our advanced, liberal world, we wait till the smoking hole in the ground to enact legislation, laws, rules etc to try to prevent the next obvious accident waiting to happen !
This female pilot (if all reports are correct) is already GUILTY of being in aviation and the innocent need to suffer before anything is done. As an illegal immigrant has to commit multiple murders in order to be deported, or imprisoned ( mentally ill of course ) She will need to kill some passengers in order to be barred from piloting ANY aircraft !
Finally someone who gets it. Why do we need to let a major incident/accident happen before something is done? Yes of course individual companies can go and remove this person from flying duties, but then this person just goes out and finds another job and nobody is the wiser at the new company and the process continues.
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digits_
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by digits_ » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:37 am

rwm1273 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:27 pm
iflyforpie wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:52 pm
Like I said, hyperbole.

Stop looking for validation here and either do what’s required or stop whining. The very fact that it’s a question tells me that it’s not serious.
I posted the topic because this person has just been hired by a new company and I would never recommend this person ever step foot into a cockpit as flight crew.

If you had actually read the thread, you would realize that there are numerous people who have first-hand experience with this person, and all came to the same conclusion. The question is valid, what avenues do you have to put a stop to someone who truly should not fly. If it makes it easier for you to comprehend, think of it as the type of choice you have trying to get an elderly person from driving once their skills deteriorated to a point they are dangerous.

The only real difference is this person isn't elderly and has never been competent from my understanding. Over 500hrs just to get their PPL and this was after being told by more than one flight school to find a new occupation.
I can see iflyforpie's point though. If you are honestly claiming this is a serious issue, then pick up the phone and call the company she works for now.
If you want to take it further, treat your findings as an SMS report to yourself: why did it happen, who was involved, what can be done to prevent it.
If a pilot with subpar flying skills passes multiple flight tests and ppc rides, then something is wrong with the system. Inquire how she could have passed her PPC ride at your company, and at the new company.
If you are still unsatisfied with the replies you get, contact TC. Talk to an enforcement officer, and see where the rabbit hole leads. Voice your concerns.

Another way to look at it, from a devil's advocate point of view, could be that the person you are talking about is a huge b**** or a**hole or whatever other colorful terms you could come up with, but that does not necessarily mean that she is also a terrible pilot. The personality issues could -subconciously- color the evaluation of her skills.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by valleyboy » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:15 pm

So if this person continues to get jobs I guess either companies are so glad to see the back of her they give her a good reference or people in charge of hiring is not calling past employers. I never called references but always called past employers when was hiring someone. Go figure!! Seems the system is flawed on all levels. It's about filling seats and not about standards - one can only hope for days of pilot surplus again.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:48 pm

I never called references but always called past employers when was hiring someone.
Same here, it is sometimes what the former employer does not say that tells the true story.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by B208 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:59 pm

If someone has concerns as grave as those stated by the OP the best thing to do is to express those concerns, in writing, to the Training and/or management structure. Cite specific examples of performance, i.e. “On 12 Oct 2018 FO Bloggins deviated 1 and a half dots low on the Glide path during an ILS at CYYY. Bloggins did not correct the error and the Captain was forced to take control to ensure safety of flight.” Don’t write something vague like, “Bloggins flying worries me”. Keep documenting and reporting until the issue is addressed. If the training department or the first level of management won’t address is, then kick it up the ladder until someone does (write a letter to TC if you have to).

If you are management or training and this sort of issue presents itself then make the hard call and fail the individual. I know that can be a hard thing to do, but I will pass on a bit of advice that was given to me: When it comes to command in aviation, nice guys cause funerals.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rookiepilot » Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:25 pm

B208 wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:59 pm

I know that can be a hard thing to do, but I will pass on a bit of advice that was given to me: When it comes to command in aviation, nice guys cause funerals.
Absolutely.

Even as a lower time PPL, I learned this through reading accident reports where nice guys died, and took others with them.

Passivity in handling an emergency, or a situation that might turn into one, is a fatal character flaw.

Unfortunately, some we interact with in aviation couldn't give a rip -- trust but verify.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by corethatthermal » Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:57 pm

what the former employer does not say that tells the true story.
So, they are not allowed to tell the truth or say anything negative about a past employee ? Part of the problem and not part of the solution. TC needs to have more teeth to remove gross incompetence. I am sure CWE would regale us with TC s level of competence !
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:11 pm

So, they are not allowed to tell the truth or say anything negative about a past employee ?
Sure you are free to say whatever you want to, however there is always the danger of being sued for slander if you say something negative.

If the former employer does say positive things that is a safe way of not giving a positive reference.
TC needs to have more teeth to remove gross incompetence. I am sure CWE would regale us with TC s level of competence !
I can only comment on my own experience with T.C. and from my experience they are toothless.







c
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Alav » Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:07 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:11 pm
So, they are not allowed to tell the truth or say anything negative about a past employee ?
Sure you are free to say whatever you want to, however there is always the danger of being sued for slander if you say something negative.

If the former employer does say positive things that is a safe way of not giving a positive reference.
HR departments are super risk averse these days. They're about down to confirming dates of employment now. That's it.

Instructions I've received is that all reference calls were to be forwarded to HR, we were not to speak at all to the caller. I would be very surprised if aviation is different.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by valleyboy » Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:18 pm

When it comes to command in aviation, nice guys cause funerals.
That seems like a good old boy statement. I'll go one further, ass holes and tyrants also create large smoking holes. It boils down to managing and using resources and assets at your disposal. This seems to be the point of the whole thread. Carrying a substandard pilot, no matter what seat he is in is simply dangerous and not acceptable. The system is there to filter these individuals out but it's obviously flawed.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by digits_ » Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:29 pm

valleyboy wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:18 pm
When it comes to command in aviation, nice guys cause funerals.
That seems like a good old boy statement. I'll go one further, ass holes and tyrants also create large smoking holes. It boils down to managing and using resources and assets at your disposal. This seems to be the point of the whole thread. Carrying a substandard pilot, no matter what seat he is in is simply dangerous and not acceptable. The system is there to filter these individuals out but it's obviously flawed.
I would specify it futher and claim that in a multicrew environment, a super nice FO and/or an asshole captain cause most smoking holes.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by corethatthermal » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:18 pm

I would specify it futher and claim that in a multicrew environment, a super nice FO and/or an asshole captain cause most smoking holes.
That truthful statement both exposes the "old boys club" mentality AND the dysfunctionality of SMS, TC, whistleblower protections, PC observance ( treating minorities which includes women in aviation in a preferential way) and the eroding liberal view of no laws and no punitive measures to stop failure !
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by BCnomad » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:14 am

B208, digits - as stated in the thread - notes, emails, letters, and calls were made to the various people - it went to the top. There was effort made by a number of people indicating that continuing was not a good idea.
The driving force behind hiring or keeping someone on is sadly purely economical. Supply and Demand. Hence the reason why this same person has been hired again. You cant find people with certain skills to fill certain positions. And sadly again this one has managed to be taken on for that job role.

Valleyboy has it right - but again It is driven by supply / demand - Especially in this current climate.

Further to the sidetrack here. We have nice and asshole captains and FOs in the industry. This thread is not about that. This is about how or what can you do if someone you believe is incapable of doing a job due to their incompetence. After you have tried using the tools available to you: SMS, HR, CEO, Management. When all that has failed and one continues to be hired - what is left that one can do to prevent this potential safety issue from becoming a statistic.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by corethatthermal » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:08 pm

what is left that one can do to prevent this potential safety issue from becoming a statistic.
MEDIA ! SHAME TC and the various culprits in public until something is done ! ONLY other way is await the smoking hole !
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