What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

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C.W.E.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:14 pm

MEDIA ! SHAME TC
In the public world that may get results.

But T.C. is a different animal altogether and they have zero accountability...zero.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by B208 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:23 pm

valleyboy wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:18 pm
When it comes to command in aviation, nice guys cause funerals.
That seems like a good old boy statement. I'll go one further, ass holes and tyrants also create large smoking holes. It boils down to managing and using resources and assets at your disposal. This seems to be the point of the whole thread. Carrying a substandard pilot, no matter what seat he is in is simply dangerous and not acceptable. The system is there to filter these individuals out but it's obviously flawed.
I will spell this out so as to minimize the opportunities for people to misunderstand. The “Nice guys” the above statement is referring to are the check pilots, training captains and managers who let marginal pilots slide through because they feel sorry for them. The point, which some really missed, was that as an evaluator your job may involve inflicting some really horrible consequences onto someone’s career. Failure to do this unpleasant task, (and unless you are a sociopath it is unpleasant), results in an incompetent pilot causing death.
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Last edited by B208 on Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by B208 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:24 pm

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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by B208 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:25 pm

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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by jakeandelwood » Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:50 am

B208 wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:23 pm
valleyboy wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:18 pm
When it comes to command in aviation, nice guys cause funerals.
That seems like a good old boy statement. I'll go one further, ass holes and tyrants also create large smoking holes. It boils down to managing and using resources and assets at your disposal. This seems to be the point of the whole thread. Carrying a substandard pilot, no matter what seat he is in is simply dangerous and not acceptable. The system is there to filter these individuals out but it's obviously flawed.
I will spell this out so as to minimize the opportunities for people to misunderstand. The “Nice guys” the above statement is referring to are the check pilots, training captains and managers who let marginal pilots slide through because they feel sorry for them. The point, which some really missed, was that as an evaluator your job may involve inflicting some really horrible consequences onto someone’s career. Failure to do this unpleasant task, (and unless you are a sociopath it is unpleasant), results in an incompetent pilot causing death.
It may be a money issue as well. Training costs money for an employer and having to do any more than necessary is an extra expense they don't want. "Push them thru, we can't waste more time and money, they'll learn on the job" , I can see that being said. I think that a check pilot being a nice guy in the sense that he is making the trainee feel comfortable is key, everyone does better when comfortable. I did an initial checkride once and the check pilot was a complete tyrant, I've never felt so uncomfortable in a cockpit, about half way thru after he screamed at me for not holding my heading while I was steering around cloud (ATC said to remain VFR) I started to just shut down and not even care as I figured I had failed anyway. He was so wound up and impatient, I figured he shouldn't be a checkpoint with his attitude, he ended up passing me, that was the most stressful checkride I had ever done.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by tbaylx » Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:47 am

jakeandelwood wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:50 am
B208 wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:23 pm
valleyboy wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:18 pm


That seems like a good old boy statement. I'll go one further, ass holes and tyrants also create large smoking holes. It boils down to managing and using resources and assets at your disposal. This seems to be the point of the whole thread. Carrying a substandard pilot, no matter what seat he is in is simply dangerous and not acceptable. The system is there to filter these individuals out but it's obviously flawed.
I will spell this out so as to minimize the opportunities for people to misunderstand. The “Nice guys” the above statement is referring to are the check pilots, training captains and managers who let marginal pilots slide through because they feel sorry for them. The point, which some really missed, was that as an evaluator your job may involve inflicting some really horrible consequences onto someone’s career. Failure to do this unpleasant task, (and unless you are a sociopath it is unpleasant), results in an incompetent pilot causing death.
It may be a money issue as well. Training costs money for an employer and having to do any more than necessary is an extra expense they don't want. "Push them thru, we can't waste more time and money, they'll learn on the job" , I can see that being said. I think that a check pilot being a nice guy in the sense that he is making the trainee feel comfortable is key, everyone does better when comfortable. I did an initial checkride once and the check pilot was a complete tyrant, I've never felt so uncomfortable in a cockpit, about half way thru after he screamed at me for not holding my heading while I was steering around cloud (ATC said to remain VFR) I started to just shut down and not even care as I figured I had failed anyway. He was so wound up and impatient, I figured he shouldn't be a checkpoint with his attitude, he ended up passing me, that was the most stressful checkride I had ever done.
Quite the opposite.

If they're steadily progressing and are responding to training then most 705 companies will spend the extra money and time helping a trainee with extra sim sessions and more line indoc.

However if it's a complete disaster no one wants to have that pilot as an ongoing liability. Because if you help push them through then you're just going to have to deal with it on the next recurrent in 6 months, or worse when their seniority lets them bid for an upgrade. Most 705 airlines and trainers would rather wash someone out early before they become an ongoing problem child for years to come.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by digits_ » Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:03 am

tbaylx wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:47 am
jakeandelwood wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:50 am
B208 wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:23 pm


I will spell this out so as to minimize the opportunities for people to misunderstand. The “Nice guys” the above statement is referring to are the check pilots, training captains and managers who let marginal pilots slide through because they feel sorry for them. The point, which some really missed, was that as an evaluator your job may involve inflicting some really horrible consequences onto someone’s career. Failure to do this unpleasant task, (and unless you are a sociopath it is unpleasant), results in an incompetent pilot causing death.
It may be a money issue as well. Training costs money for an employer and having to do any more than necessary is an extra expense they don't want. "Push them thru, we can't waste more time and money, they'll learn on the job" , I can see that being said. I think that a check pilot being a nice guy in the sense that he is making the trainee feel comfortable is key, everyone does better when comfortable. I did an initial checkride once and the check pilot was a complete tyrant, I've never felt so uncomfortable in a cockpit, about half way thru after he screamed at me for not holding my heading while I was steering around cloud (ATC said to remain VFR) I started to just shut down and not even care as I figured I had failed anyway. He was so wound up and impatient, I figured he shouldn't be a checkpoint with his attitude, he ended up passing me, that was the most stressful checkride I had ever done.
Quite the opposite.

If they're steadily progressing and are responding to training then most 705 companies will spend the extra money and time helping a trainee with extra sim sessions and more line indoc.

However if it's a complete disaster no one wants to have that pilot as an ongoing liability. Because if you help push them through then you're just going to have to deal with it on the next recurrent in 6 months, or worse when their seniority lets them bid for an upgrade. Most 705 airlines and trainers would rather wash someone out early before they become an ongoing problem child for years to come.
You're both right, but talking about different ops. The money thing is a significant factor in 703 and 704 operations.
The extra training as described by tbaylx is the strategy decent 705 operators use.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by BCnomad » Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:54 am

Some of what you say is correct and some of what you say is not.
Yes companies - and I don't care how big or small they are look at the bottom line. Push em through - we spent $$ on them and we don't have anyone. We can't fail them - there might be consequences. ie - lost investment, lost contract due to lack of crew, legal actions, etc etc. Some companies do care about the future issues that will arise if someone is pushed through and kept on. In my experience I see a lot of pushing and little cutting of losses.

If you read the post - many attempts were made to tell the hire ups - the ones that make the ultimate choice - to abandon this person. Was not done and conveniently the company had a major change - they closed shop - therefore issue resolved.

You guys can hypothesis all you want about asshole pilots and nice people and HR and SMS and who's job it is to do what. In the end the system that is in place has not worked. There are people that get through and continue on. This is one of them.

The person in question also has the ability to create whatever resume they feel fit to produce - then it is up to HR to figure out if same person answered their behavioural questions or pissed off the wrong person on the hiring panel. So if you are diabolical enough I am sure you can pass the HR interview and get through. Now the reference check - well you are sure not to provide the people that know you for what you are - you will give the good references. The hiring process you would hope would be the key to stopping people of this nature moving forward. But unfortunately it is run on the basis of behavioural science and not necessarily the actual job (if that makes sense). The power to hire has shifted away from the CP doing the hiring and now more of the HR doing the hiring - another debate but some of this is good and some of this is bad. For instance you might have 5000 hours and have applied for a job requiring 2500 hours but you must have type rating. Therefore, you are cut from the pool of people bcz you don't have that type rating. But you might have a type rating on an aircraft that is very similar - CP might say yes, but in headhunting / HR it would be a "no" and good luck explaining as to why you think you can do it.

Long explanation, but the issue here remains that some people slip through the cracks and unfortunately get ahead when honest others have put in the time and effort and have the ability to do this job. We have a system in place that is suppose to sort that out but as we know now that TC has lost its teeth and if an ACP decides to fail someone - well welcome to court. So there is something that needs to be fixed in that area.

I will emphasize again that the person in question slipped through and this was after a number of people had made it clear to hire ups that this person is a safety issue, and social disturbance within the company. Nothing was done... good luck to the next company
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by co-joe » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:38 pm

After convening with several other captains, I decided to approach the CP about someone's upgrade. Not to sewer them, but just to suggest that it be put off another year. I got crapped on so hard that I'm not sure I would ever do it again. CP accused me of trying to undermine his job, and told me to mind my own business. I felt so strongly that I also talked to the ACP. Nearly got myself fired for that one.

My take away is that if they don't ask for your opinion about someone, nobody wants to hear it.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by digits_ » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:53 pm

co-joe wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:38 pm
After convening with several other captains, I decided to approach the CP about someone's upgrade. Not to sewer them, but just to suggest that it be put off another year. I got crapped on so hard that I'm not sure I would ever do it again. CP accused me of trying to undermine his job, and told me to mind my own business. I felt so strongly that I also talked to the ACP. Nearly got myself fired for that one.

My take away is that if they don't ask for your opinion about someone, nobody wants to hear it.
Wow. Was that at a crappy 703?
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by co-joe » Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:13 pm

Unfortunately not. I felt horrible being in that position. Great person, heart of gold, good attitude, weak situation awareness, just not ready. Passed the ride though.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by KAG » Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:28 am

Co-joe that sucks, and thats what a CP is supposed to do - filter out those that are ready vs those that aren't. Years ago I was in a similar situation where one of my FO's/ trainees was literally the worst Ive ever flown with, had a horrible attitude and was not receptive to critique. I was young (24) and was trying to mentor him. I should have sent him back to home base but didn't. He caused major headaches for everyone at our base, chiefly me. Anyway looking back I should have sent him packing. There is no place for people like described above in control of other peoples lives.
Some people can't do some things. Im not steady enough or smart enough to be a surgeon, Fine I accept that. Why is it that everyone feels entitled that they should have a left seat on a plane? some can't and should be (penalty free) told such.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Old fella » Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:00 am

KAG wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:28 am
Co-joe that sucks, and thats what a CP is supposed to do - filter out those that are ready vs those that aren't. Years ago I was in a similar situation where one of my FO's/ trainees was literally the worst Ive ever flown with, had a horrible attitude and was not receptive to critique. I was young (24) and was trying to mentor him. I should have sent him back to home base but didn't. He caused major headaches for everyone at our base, chiefly me. Anyway looking back I should have sent him packing. There is no place for people like described above in control of other peoples lives.
Some people can't do some things. Im not steady enough or smart enough to be a surgeon, Fine I accept that. Why is it that everyone feels entitled that they should have a left seat on a plane? some can't and should be (penalty free) told such.
Ran into a similar situation back in mid ‘80s, a mid twenty low time copilot was hired kinda as a favour to a known higher up. Not a bad person, had a family and I always looked at it through what I was like in same situation. Unfortunately the person didn’t seem to have an aptitude and myself and other left seat drivers couldn’t get through to him after a few months of line flying. It wasn’t a poor attitude and unwillingness, just ability with basic skills. It was a strange situation the CP passed him(just barely) in his IFR/PPC check ride it was kinda like “ the way it is” and watch him in bad wx. Shortly after I moved to the regulator and I did hear a yr later the young guy acknowledged flying wasn’t his thing and didn’t enjoy that type of work. He moved on to another career out west, not sure what.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by B208 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:58 am

co-joe wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:38 pm
After convening with several other captains, I decided to approach the CP about someone's upgrade. Not to sewer them, but just to suggest that it be put off another year. I got crapped on so hard that I'm not sure I would ever do it again. CP accused me of trying to undermine his job, and told me to mind my own business. I felt so strongly that I also talked to the ACP. Nearly got myself fired for that one.

My take away is that if they don't ask for your opinion about someone, nobody wants to hear it.
Sorry that happened to you, but you did the right thing.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Meatservo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:41 pm

B208 wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:58 am
co-joe wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:38 pm
After convening with several other captains, I decided to approach the CP about someone's upgrade. Not to sewer them, but just to suggest that it be put off another year. I got crapped on so hard that I'm not sure I would ever do it again. CP accused me of trying to undermine his job, and told me to mind my own business. I felt so strongly that I also talked to the ACP. Nearly got myself fired for that one.

My take away is that if they don't ask for your opinion about someone, nobody wants to hear it.
Sorry that happened to you, but you did the right thing.
Yeah. Your conscience is clean. Sounds like your chief pilot is insecure and immature. If you were a real martyr you could make this all an "SMS" report. I would be very interested to see what would happen then. But that's master-level shit-disturbing and I assume you sort of need to keep your job.

Anyway, this means nothing but I respect what you did.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by corethatthermal » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:41 pm

I heard that in the teaching profession, that passing the buck or shuffling off a bad employee to another company or to another person's problem is
called " passing the trash" or " dance of the lemons" and the employees are called Typhoid Mary or Typhoid Bob etc. Nothing ever changes it seems!
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Flint » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:14 am

Here's my 2 cents worth.... I have actually been in that kind of situation before. In the 90's I worked as an FO for about a 1.5 yrs on a high performance airplane. It was my first flying job, hired at low time hrs (500), knew nothing about commercial aviation, and I was older than most of my captains. I wasn't a terrible pilot, but I was mostly unsure of what my actual responsibilities were or what I was doing incorrectly. It was my first commercial flying job for pete's sake. Some of my captains were good. Most were complete asses. My favorite captain was female and most of my worst ones were female. The male ones were 'meh'. I didn't expect to be 'spoon fed' but I expected my captains to be leaders, to assist in my progress as a pilot, to correct or improve the way I did stuff. I had days where barely anything was said in the flight deck. I'd ask questions and either got one word answers or answers with a 'why are you asking me' attitude. Either they didn't like being there - a few had interviews with airlines but couldn't get in - or they didn't like me being there - an older FO with little hours. I ended up not trying to talk to my captains. Just the procedures and that's it. That makes for long frustrating days. I eventually had it out with the training captain and was more or less told it was my fault and I'll probably kill ppl. Gee, that made me feel good. I left soon after that and never went back to flying as a career. I do miss it, but those captains, that's plural not singular, made it look like you had to be a complete prick if you wanted be a captain and I didn't want that or want to deal with that. Long story short - Captains, be leaders, not bosses. If you don't know the difference read up on it. You have the chance to create the best captains ever or let them become flying idiots. Some of these lousy pilots might have been improved if their captains were actually captains instead of FOs in the left seat. And some are just lousy pilots with no hope what-so-ever.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by ant_321 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:40 pm

Flint wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:14 am
Here's my 2 cents worth.... I have actually been in that kind of situation before. In the 90's I worked as an FO for about a 1.5 yrs on a high performance airplane. It was my first flying job, hired at low time hrs (500), knew nothing about commercial aviation, and I was older than most of my captains. I wasn't a terrible pilot, but I was mostly unsure of what my actual responsibilities were or what I was doing incorrectly. It was my first commercial flying job for pete's sake. Some of my captains were good. Most were complete asses. My favorite captain was female and most of my worst ones were female. The male ones were 'meh'. I didn't expect to be 'spoon fed' but I expected my captains to be leaders, to assist in my progress as a pilot, to correct or improve the way I did stuff. I had days where barely anything was said in the flight deck. I'd ask questions and either got one word answers or answers with a 'why are you asking me' attitude. Either they didn't like being there - a few had interviews with airlines but couldn't get in - or they didn't like me being there - an older FO with little hours. I ended up not trying to talk to my captains. Just the procedures and that's it. That makes for long frustrating days. I eventually had it out with the training captain and was more or less told it was my fault and I'll probably kill ppl. Gee, that made me feel good. I left soon after that and never went back to flying as a career. I do miss it, but those captains, that's plural not singular, made it look like you had to be a complete prick if you wanted be a captain and I didn't want that or want to deal with that. Long story short - Captains, be leaders, not bosses. If you don't know the difference read up on it. You have the chance to create the best captains ever or let them become flying idiots. Some of these lousy pilots might have been improved if their captains were actually captains instead of FOs in the left seat. And some are just lousy pilots with no hope what-so-ever.
I’m not saying this to be an jerk, but most of the captains you flew with were “complete asses” then the problem was probably you. I flew with a couple hundred different captains while I was an FO and there was only one I would classify as an ass.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by C.W.E. » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:00 pm

Looking back on my flying career I have a hard time remembering any real asses, so far only two come to mind.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by corethatthermal » Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:17 pm

I’m not saying this to be an jerk, but most of the captains you flew with were “complete asses” then the problem was probably you. I flew with a couple hundred different captains while I was an FO and there was only one I would classify as an ass.
There may come a day when you DO fly with an ass ( next to you, a service animal, Donkey that is ! )
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