Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

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rookiepilot
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Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by rookiepilot » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:04 pm

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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:21 pm

This is really a sad episode for a company that has built so many good products and has to be hurting shareholders.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by tailgunner » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:31 pm

There were some posters who wanted to blame the pilots, wondering what they think now?
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:44 pm

Boeing used to have a great reputation of building fantastic aircraft designed for pilots. They were known as a "pilot's airplane". Now their reputation is that they build the cheapest thing they can get certified to appease share holders, quality and safety be damned.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by Mapleflt » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:27 pm

Boeing is just the one that got caught :roll: :wink:
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by Dry Guy » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:38 pm

Don't forget the media is wrong about just about every aviation story (and probably everything else too). One reporter misunderstands something then all the other journalists reprint it and cite the first one as their source.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by W5 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:50 pm

Fairly long read (10 min.), it includes the exchange:

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... velopment/
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by boeingboy » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:39 pm

There were some posters who wanted to blame the pilots, wondering what they think now?
They still splashed a serviceable airplane from a salvageable situation.

Rationally tell me please, without jumping on the bandwagon or joining the herd mentality - how does this change anything?
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by Capt. Underpants » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:15 pm

boeingboy wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:39 pm
There were some posters who wanted to blame the pilots, wondering what they think now?
They still splashed a serviceable airplane from a salvageable situation.

Rationally tell me please, without jumping on the bandwagon or joining the herd mentality - how does this change anything?
I’d prefer to wait until the investigations are finalized before making such conclusions.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:42 pm

It looks like it is getting more embarrassing for Boeing as more info comes out.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by mixturerich » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:34 pm

Mapleflt wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:27 pm
Boeing is just the one that got caught :roll: :wink:
Exactly, look at most politicians, or all those actors and the #metoo movement. You really think Airbus or Bombardier have their hands clean? Keep dreamin’.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by tbaylx » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:30 am

Capt. Underpants wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:15 pm
boeingboy wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:39 pm
There were some posters who wanted to blame the pilots, wondering what they think now?
They still splashed a serviceable airplane from a salvageable situation.

Rationally tell me please, without jumping on the bandwagon or joining the herd mentality - how does this change anything?
I’d prefer to wait until the investigations are finalized before making such conclusions.
All the relevant parts of the investigations have been concluded and released. Nothing else is coming that will significantly change the narrative.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by BTD » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:15 am

Dry Guy wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:38 pm
Don't forget the media is wrong about just about every aviation story (and probably everything else too). One reporter misunderstands something then all the other journalists reprint it and cite the first one as their source.
The raw texts and emails have been released. We can form our own judgement without journalists’ narrative. Conclusion = very bad.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:08 am

boeingboy wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:39 pm
There were some posters who wanted to blame the pilots, wondering what they think now?
They still splashed a serviceable airplane from a salvageable situation.

Rationally tell me please, without jumping on the bandwagon or joining the herd mentality - how does this change anything?
Hard to call it a "serviceable airplane" with erroneous MCAS activation. The situation might have been salvageable had the crew been adequately trained on the malfunction.

The only thing this changes is to show how deep the systemic failure is.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by iflyforpie » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:19 am

boeingboy wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:39 pm
There were some posters who wanted to blame the pilots, wondering what they think now?
They still splashed a serviceable airplane from a salvageable situation.

Rationally tell me please, without jumping on the bandwagon or joining the herd mentality - how does this change anything?
It was not a serviceable airplane.

It had a system that was driving a primary flight control to an unsafe situation as the result of a failure of a single component.

They (Ethiopian) did exactly what Boeing told them to do and were left with an airplane dangerously out of trim and were unable to manually trim it.

Tell me, rationally, what would you have done differently at that point in time? Roll it inverted like Maverick and Denzel?

No. It’s only because pilots in North America have the autopilot on from takeoff to touchdown in most cases that this problem didn’t rear its ugly head here.

The FAA knows it. Boeing knows it. The worldwide aviation regulating bodies know it. The customers know it. It’s not the first time, either.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by boeingboy » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:14 am

It was not a serviceable airplane.
OK - my bad. When I said serviceable, I meant the aircraft was capable of flying perfectly fine. It was serviceable until a bird took out the AOA probe.

It had a system that was driving a primary flight control to an unsafe situation as the result of a failure of a single component.
Yes - this is true. It still does not make #1 untrue.


They (Ethiopian) did exactly what Boeing told them to do and were left with an airplane dangerously out of trim and were unable to manually trim it.
No - They did not do exactly as Boeing had instructed - which was a big part of the problem.

Tell me, rationally, what would you have done differently at that point in time? Roll it inverted like Maverick and Denzel?
Really - This is a rational question??
No. It’s only because pilots in North America have the autopilot on from takeoff to touchdown in most cases that this problem didn’t rear its ugly head here.
Rubbish. No matter who flies it (Not just North America) First - they all fly it the same.... and second - The system will not engage (or if it is already engaged - will disengage) if this problem arose. Everybody would be in the same boat.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by GRK2 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:39 am

Then there's that "small" issue of leaving the thrust levers at MCT (or worse...) for much if not all of the flight until that speed was waaaay beyond any normal realm. Pretty huge oversight. Even with all the conflicting warnings, someone still has to aviate. (This is an understatement...) Serviceable aircraft? Nope. Well handled by the crew? Same answer.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by digits_ » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:19 pm

GRK2 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:39 am
Then there's that "small" issue of leaving the thrust levers at MCT (or worse...) for much if not all of the flight until that speed was waaaay beyond any normal realm. Pretty huge oversight. Even with all the conflicting warnings, someone still has to aviate. (This is an understatement...) Serviceable aircraft? Nope. Well handled by the crew? Same answer.
How would you suggest one should attempt to climb with a (perceived) non responsive elevator?
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by GRK2 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:44 pm

By your response I am quite sure you either have no related experience, (that's ok, it's not a bad thing) or you didn't read the report(s) in which there was a lot of criticism leveled at the crew for their serious mismanagement of the basics of aircraft handling. Go find it and read the part about auto throttle and speed management.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by digits_ » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:12 pm

GRK2 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:44 pm
By your response I am quite sure you either have no related experience, (that's ok, it's not a bad thing) or you didn't read the report(s) in which there was a lot of criticism leveled at the crew for their serious mismanagement of the basics of aircraft handling. Go find it and read the part about auto throttle and speed management.
It would be nice if arguments get attacked instead of the person making the argument.

My point is that you can only get an airplane with a stuck nose down trim/elevator to climb by increasing speed. It would be better to overspeed and fly, than to crash with the speed within limits.

You can maybe make an argument about the trim cut out switches, but faulting them for not reducing power when they are in an uncontrolled descend is silly.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by photofly » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:24 pm

I would like to read the reports that criticize the power lever handling; where would I find them?
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by BTD » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:52 pm

I highly doubt that it was a conscious choice to leave the thrust up. I’m willing to bet it was an oversight but one that I understand.

I’ve said it before and I still believe it. I think this was a human factors accident. And I think that a substantial number of pilots around the world end up just like the Ethiopian crew did. Western or otherwise. We have had enough western pilots fly actually perfectly serviceable aircraft into the ground under much simpler circumstances. Human cognitive resources are limited. Broadly we are all similar in the way we respond to multiple stimuli competing for those cognitive resources.

The airplane put them in a precarious situation and then through a lack of foresight and seemingly negligence, it did everything possible to f*ck up the human pilot’s ability to take in and analyze the data and form a diagnosis.

There is still an argument to be made regarding worldwide pilot standards, but this situation is not the one to hang the hat on to make that case. Boeing screwed up huge, and these emails and texts are less relevant to the Mcas itself, but rather the state of the culture and work pace going on inside the company at the time.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by photofly » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:25 pm

I’d still like to read those reports. Anyone?
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by boeingboy » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:43 am

You can maybe make an argument about the trim cut out switches, but faulting them for not reducing power when they are in an uncontrolled descend is silly.
I suggest you become familiar with the facts before stating claims like this - they were not in an uncontrolled decent until the last 10 secs or so. The throttles were left wide open since they started the takeoff roll.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by digits_ » Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:23 am

boeingboy wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:43 am
You can maybe make an argument about the trim cut out switches, but faulting them for not reducing power when they are in an uncontrolled descend is silly.
I suggest you become familiar with the facts before stating claims like this - they were not in an uncontrolled decent until the last 10 secs or so. The throttles were left wide open since they started the takeoff roll.
I suggest you do the same.

Looking at the graph in the preliminary report, they were close to/at vmo from the moment the mcas started to trim down, attempting an uncommanded descend. The crew fought it by force. How would it make any sense at all to reduce power when the plane wants to descend and you want to climb?

When they couldn't hold it anymore vmo was grossly exceeded.
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