Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

[boeingboy]

With the nose down trim the only thing keeping the bird in the air was airspeed.

Horse poop. See above post.

[boeingboy]

I suggest you do the same.

Looking at the graph in the preliminary report, they were close to/at vmo from the moment the mcas started to trim down, attempting an uncommanded descend. The crew fought it by force. How would it make any sense at all to reduce power when the plane wants to descend and you want to climb?

When they couldn't hold it anymore vmo was grossly exceeded.

I have...many times.

See above posts. Besides - I was responding to your comment that they were in an uncontrolled decent. That was only the last 10 secs or so.

[boeingboy]

As there nose was trimmed down (thank you MCAS) a reduction in airspeed would have doomed the flight sooner as the FDR shows the elevator controls fully aft.

No it doesn't.

The had approximately 1/2 back yoke deflection for most of the flight. With regards to throttle and stab position - the readings are very close to the Lion air aircraft and they were able to throttle back without issue. In fact - using some of the logic some people here are using - you might say that throttling back was the right thing to do as Lion air was airborne about 3x longer. (just throwing that out there)

The Lion air FDR data only shows control column force and not position - I don't think it's possible to find a control column position simply by looking at the force applied on a graph. But it does show they exerted approx. 50 lbs - which is half measured scale.

Again - Trim the airplane.

[boeingboy]

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by corethatthermal » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:38 pm
The fight continued for the next five minutes, during which time the MCAS mounted more than 20 attacks and began to prevail.
3 things come to mind

1 The stick shaker and indications are already a past event, they figured it out and moved on.
2 They knew that flaps out worked and that retracting the flaps produced a "runaway trim" ( they retracted flaps after take-off, experienced the mcas runaway, set flaps back, it stopped, THEN they retracted the flaps AGAIN ! )
3 They knew that the trim was running away from them AND that they could stop it with electric trim operation

On the previous flight, this happened :
Finally the ghost in the jump seat intervened. It is impossible to know if he was a better airman than the pilots in the front or simply had the advantage of an overview. Either way, he recommended the obvious — shutting off the electric trim by flipping the cutout switches. The captain flipped the switches, the trim stopped running away and the MCAS was disabled. It was that easy.

With the captain’s stick shaker continuing to rattle and the trim switches set to the off (cutout) position, the crew flew to Jakarta without further issue, adjusting trim as sometimes necessary by use of the manual trim wheels mounted on both sides of the central pedestal, and landed just before midnight. Investigators do not seem to have explored why the pilots required nearly five minutes to handle what normally might have been a 30-second adventure, or why they required a cockpit guest to provide the solution
It took 3 pilots and the jumpseater to save the day ! They did 1 thing right though, they determined the probable fault of the stick shaker and dealt with it and went forward. In the accident flight , they didn't deal with the stick shaker in the same manner and it allowed a higher and confusing workload

IMHO an experienced pilot with good airmanship would:

1) leave the bloody flaps in a position where nothing bad happens and reduce power and land 2) Operate the trim if necessary as it was effective in getting back to a trimmed position ( they already knew that ) and 3) shut off the trim switches because there was obviously a trim runaway of some sort ( unreliable trim operation) and land asap . Even with the stick shaker AND especially now a runaway trim, it should have been obvious to say " to hell with this , leave the F______ flaps alone, shut off the trim and manually fly to the nearest suitable runway, and screw the ATC" !

In this order I would prioritize the fault 1) Boeing 2) the FAA and 3 ) the Pilots ( When I say Pilots, I mean the pilots failure to follow simple trim runaway procedure, fly the airplane, prioritize and land asap. I am also meaning the airlines for their overemphasis on automation, inexperienced pilots, lack of airmanship and economic / corrupt forces causing an atmosphere not conducive to safety ETC!

Well said.

[Curiousflyer]

As there nose was trimmed down (thank you MCAS) a reduction in airspeed would have doomed the flight sooner as the FDR shows the elevator controls fully aft.

No it doesn't.

The had approximately 1/2 back yoke deflection for most of the flight. With regards to throttle and stab position - the readings are very close to the Lion air aircraft and they were able to throttle back without issue. In fact - using some of the logic some people here are using - you might say that throttling back was the right thing to do as Lion air was airborne about 3x longer. (just throwing that out there)

The Lion air FDR data only shows control column force and not position - I don't think it's possible to find a control column position simply by looking at the force applied on a graph. But it does show they exerted approx. 50 lbs - which is half measured scale.

Again - Trim the airplane.

The Ethiopian FDR shows column input and has a maximum range. The graphs show control column position, not “force”. When the aircraft accelerates to VMO it is very clear that the control column position is fully aft, ie the only thing that saved them was increasing the airspeed as the elevator was fully aft at the time. According to the radar altimeter they were 1000 feet AGL at this time. If the aircraft would have been going slower, it would have crashed. The aircraft was flying at maximum lift, due to the commanded nose down trim of MCAS. This event happens 100 seconds into the flight, full aft elevator deflection due to nose down trim, the only recourse to keep the plane flying is full power.
After the aircraft accelerated to VMO, you’re right it took about 1/2 column input to keep the aircraft flying, thankfully they were going that fast! And thank you for proving my point.
Now it could have been possible to reduce the thrust before this event, but why? Do you always reduce thrust on takeoff? Pull the throttles back when you get a stall indication? Reduce thrust on takeoff because there’s a problem? Now if Boeing had done a proper job of trading pilots on MCAS, perhaps there would have been a training drill to reduce thrust and airspeed with the anticipation of nose down trim.

[Heliian]

Boeing was and is a great company ! There are MANY things going on that are pulling from various directions to make Boeing an average or worse company ! Power of the shareholders, subcontracting to India for mcas and other computer code to save a few $, globalization, affirmative action ( hiring someone who works poorly , slowly and makes many mistakes but are prevented from being fired because they are a transvestite black female etc ) , the erosion of society and moral fibre, the failure to uphold laws ( 2 sets of laws, one for the commoners and another for the elites, politicians etc ) Greed, incompetence, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc ,,,,,, Shall I go on ?

Those who look for a straw in a haystack are as blind as the ostrich who hides his head in the sand !

Holy tangents batman!

It's simple, boeing wanted to be a hot stock and greed took over. Simple as that. Their stock quadrupled in 3 years, directly correlating with their shitty products rolling out and staffing cutbacks. The only ones responsible are the boeing management.

[boeingboy]

The Ethiopian FDR shows column input and has a maximum range. The graphs show control column position, not “force”. When the aircraft accelerates to VMO it is very clear that the control column position is fully aft, ie the only thing that saved them was increasing the airspeed as the elevator was fully aft at the time. According to the radar altimeter they were 1000 feet AGL at this time. If the aircraft would have been going slower, it would have crashed. The aircraft was flying at maximum lift, due to the commanded nose down trim of MCAS. This event happens 100 seconds into the flight, full aft elevator deflection due to nose down trim, the only recourse to keep the plane flying is full power.
After the aircraft accelerated to VMO, you’re right it took about 1/2 column input to keep the aircraft flying, thankfully they were going that fast! And thank you for proving my point.
Now it could have been possible to reduce the thrust before this event, but why? Do you always reduce thrust on takeoff? Pull the throttles back when you get a stall indication? Reduce thrust on takeoff because there’s a problem? Now if Boeing had done a proper job of trading pilots on MCAS, perhaps there would have been a training drill to reduce thrust and airspeed with the anticipation of nose down trim.

Read my post again.....I said ET302 shows column position and Lion air shows column force. A disclaimer the they are not quite the same as I was comparing the 2 flights in which Lion air was able to control the aircraft just fine without going Mach 2 with their hair on fire.

As for ET302 position - they only reached full back yoke At roughly 05:43:35 during the final dive...about 8 secs before they hit the ground. Pior to that they were at approx. half yoke deflection the whole time they were at VMO. So no - your theory is full of holes. Read again - the more out of trim you are with higher airspeed - the more nose down force you get, and hence - the more back pressure you need to maintain level flight.

the only recourse to keep the plane flying is full power.

No it's not....the simple thing is to push that little switch on the Column under your right thumb called a trim switch. Works like a charm - and the FDR data proves that!

[digits_]

As for ET302 position - they only reached full back yoke At roughly 05:43:35 during the final dive...about 8 secs before they hit the ground. Pior to that they were at approx. half yoke deflection the whole time they were at VMO. So no - your theory is full of holes. Read again - the more out of trim you are with higher airspeed -

That's the thing: the higher the airspeed, the less out of trim you will be. Nose down trim means you are trimmed for a high airspeed. The more your airspeed increases, the smaller the difference between your actual speed and the speed you are trimmed for.

Even with full trim down, the airplane would have descended and stabilized at an altitude where the IAS was reached for which the plane was trimmed, if there was sufficient altitude available, and if the plane wouldn't have fallen apart due to the extreme speed.

[photofly]

I wonder what the trim speed with full nose down trim is. Anyone know?

[C.W.E.]

One thing is clear.

Boeing has a real problem with this airplane and it is no where near solved.

[AOW]

Obviously, Being Ethiopian and calling on "god" He was most likely calling on allah ! There have been other accidents where this scenario played out and they have often given up on the fight and prayed to their god (Satan) but with no effect !

Actually, the majority in Ethiopia practice a form of Christianity, the largest group being Ethiopian Orthodox, who outnumber the Muslim population without adding in the Protestants and Catholics.

But nice try, bigot.

[corethatthermal]

But nice try, bigot.

Nice try with the name calling, doesn't work with me ! Facts are facts !

['97 Tercel]

Fact is you're an idiot.

[corethatthermal]

From the lion air flight 610:

The Indian-born captain was said to be silent at the end before the plane hit the water, while the Indonesian first officer said “Allahu Akbar”, or “God is greatest”, a common Arabic phrase in the majority-Muslim country that can be used to express shock or distress.

BTW Allahu Akbar does NOT mean God is greatest. It means Allah is greatest OR greater than your God! The MSM and other politically correct bought out tools like to tell you that we have the same god and Islam is a religion of peace Blah blah blah blah blah !

[sportingrifle]

I am going to suggest that there be a thread called "Pissing Contests." Whenever two posters use a thread to become combatants and drift the thread away from the topic at hand, their posts get moved to the "Pissing Contest" thread.

Sportingrifle

[boeingboy]

I wonder what the trim speed with full nose down trim is. Anyone know?

Mach 2 with your hair on fire!

[boeingboy]

That's the thing: the higher the airspeed, the less out of trim you will be. Nose down trim means you are trimmed for a high airspeed. The more your airspeed increases, the smaller the difference between your actual speed and the speed you are trimmed for.

Even with full trim down, the airplane would have descended and stabilized at an altitude where the IAS was reached for which the plane was trimmed, if there was sufficient altitude available, and if the plane wouldn't have fallen apart due to the extreme speed.

Seriously - Do you fly anything bigger than a Cessna?

With full nose down trim you would be going so fast you run into other aerodynamic problems. Full nose down is way more than you would ever need...it's there so you have a necessary range at low speed. At higher speed - the aircraft is actually trimmed nose up to counter Mach tuck.

Mach trim is automatically applied above M0.615 to the elevators. This provides speed stability against Mach Tuck; i.e. as Mach increases, the centre of pressure moves aft and the nose of the aircraft tends to drop.

[BTD]

From the lion air flight 610:

The Indian-born captain was said to be silent at the end before the plane hit the water, while the Indonesian first officer said “Allahu Akbar”, or “God is greatest”, a common Arabic phrase in the majority-Muslim country that can be used to express shock or distress.

BTW Allahu Akbar does NOT mean God is greatest. It means Allah is greatest OR greater than your God! The MSM and other politically correct bought out tools like to tell you that we have the same god and Islam is a religion of peace Blah blah blah blah blah !

You seem pretty bent out of shape about which God is which. Don’t you know all Gods are made up anyway.

[digits_]

That's the thing: the higher the airspeed, the less out of trim you will be. Nose down trim means you are trimmed for a high airspeed. The more your airspeed increases, the smaller the difference between your actual speed and the speed you are trimmed for.

Even with full trim down, the airplane would have descended and stabilized at an altitude where the IAS was reached for which the plane was trimmed, if there was sufficient altitude available, and if the plane wouldn't have fallen apart due to the extreme speed.

Seriously - Do you fly anything bigger than a Cessna?

With full nose down trim you would be going so fast you run into other aerodynamic problems. Full nose down is way more than you would ever need...it's there so you have a necessary range at low speed. At higher speed - the aircraft is actually trimmed nose up to counter Mach tuck.

Mach trim is automatically applied above M0.615 to the elevators. This provides speed stability against Mach Tuck; i.e. as Mach increases, the centre of pressure moves aft and the nose of the aircraft tends to drop.

I'm not sure mach tuck had any effect on the accidents. Their speeds at low altitude were fairly low.

You keep bringing up new subjects and keep deflecting my original question: why would it have helped to reduce the throttles? Reducing the throttles while maintaining altitude would have increased control forces, not reduce them.

[Curiousflyer]

The Ethiopian FDR shows column input and has a maximum range. The graphs show control column position, not “force”. When the aircraft accelerates to VMO it is very clear that the control column position is fully aft, ie the only thing that saved them was increasing the airspeed as the elevator was fully aft at the time. According to the radar altimeter they were 1000 feet AGL at this time. If the aircraft would have been going slower, it would have crashed. The aircraft was flying at maximum lift, due to the commanded nose down trim of MCAS. This event happens 100 seconds into the flight, full aft elevator deflection due to nose down trim, the only recourse to keep the plane flying is full power.
After the aircraft accelerated to VMO, you’re right it took about 1/2 column input to keep the aircraft flying, thankfully they were going that fast! And thank you for proving my point.
Now it could have been possible to reduce the thrust before this event, but why? Do you always reduce thrust on takeoff? Pull the throttles back when you get a stall indication? Reduce thrust on takeoff because there’s a problem? Now if Boeing had done a proper job of trading pilots on MCAS, perhaps there would have been a training drill to reduce thrust and airspeed with the anticipation of nose down trim.

Read my post again.....I said ET302 shows column position and Lion air shows column force. A disclaimer the they are not quite the same as I was comparing the 2 flights in which Lion air was able to control the aircraft just fine without going Mach 2 with their hair on fire.

As for ET302 position - they only reached full back yoke At roughly 05:43:35 during the final dive...about 8 secs before they hit the ground. Pior to that they were at approx. half yoke deflection the whole time they were at VMO. So no - your theory is full of holes. Read again - the more out of trim you are with higher airspeed - the more nose down force you get, and hence - the more back pressure you need to maintain level flight.

the only recourse to keep the plane flying is full power.

No it's not....the simple thing is to push that little switch on the Column under your right thumb called a trim switch. Works like a charm - and the FDR data proves that!

No they reached full aft column 100s in. At that time the MCAS had trimmed fully nose down. They did trim the nose up, enough to get the aircraft flyable and climbing away from the ground, when the GPWS warning stopped, they hit the trim cutout switches.
They did trim the aircraft, then actioned the drill like they were supposed to.
There are no holes, keep dreaming with your emotional bias. The aircraft is not flyable with full nose down trim without excessive airspeed.