Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
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- rookiepilot
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
This is really a sad episode for a company that has built so many good products and has to be hurting shareholders.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
There were some posters who wanted to blame the pilots, wondering what they think now?
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
Boeing used to have a great reputation of building fantastic aircraft designed for pilots. They were known as a "pilot's airplane". Now their reputation is that they build the cheapest thing they can get certified to appease share holders, quality and safety be damned.
Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
Don't forget the media is wrong about just about every aviation story (and probably everything else too). One reporter misunderstands something then all the other journalists reprint it and cite the first one as their source.
Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
Fairly long read (10 min.), it includes the exchange:
https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... velopment/
https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... velopment/
Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
They still splashed a serviceable airplane from a salvageable situation.There were some posters who wanted to blame the pilots, wondering what they think now?
Rationally tell me please, without jumping on the bandwagon or joining the herd mentality - how does this change anything?
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
I’d prefer to wait until the investigations are finalized before making such conclusions.boeingboy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:39 pmThey still splashed a serviceable airplane from a salvageable situation.There were some posters who wanted to blame the pilots, wondering what they think now?
Rationally tell me please, without jumping on the bandwagon or joining the herd mentality - how does this change anything?
Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
It looks like it is getting more embarrassing for Boeing as more info comes out.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
Exactly, look at most politicians, or all those actors and the #metoo movement. You really think Airbus or Bombardier have their hands clean? Keep dreamin’.
Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
All the relevant parts of the investigations have been concluded and released. Nothing else is coming that will significantly change the narrative.Capt. Underpants wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:15 pmI’d prefer to wait until the investigations are finalized before making such conclusions.boeingboy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:39 pmThey still splashed a serviceable airplane from a salvageable situation.There were some posters who wanted to blame the pilots, wondering what they think now?
Rationally tell me please, without jumping on the bandwagon or joining the herd mentality - how does this change anything?
Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
The raw texts and emails have been released. We can form our own judgement without journalists’ narrative. Conclusion = very bad.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
Hard to call it a "serviceable airplane" with erroneous MCAS activation. The situation might have been salvageable had the crew been adequately trained on the malfunction.boeingboy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:39 pmThey still splashed a serviceable airplane from a salvageable situation.There were some posters who wanted to blame the pilots, wondering what they think now?
Rationally tell me please, without jumping on the bandwagon or joining the herd mentality - how does this change anything?
The only thing this changes is to show how deep the systemic failure is.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
It was not a serviceable airplane.boeingboy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:39 pmThey still splashed a serviceable airplane from a salvageable situation.There were some posters who wanted to blame the pilots, wondering what they think now?
Rationally tell me please, without jumping on the bandwagon or joining the herd mentality - how does this change anything?
It had a system that was driving a primary flight control to an unsafe situation as the result of a failure of a single component.
They (Ethiopian) did exactly what Boeing told them to do and were left with an airplane dangerously out of trim and were unable to manually trim it.
Tell me, rationally, what would you have done differently at that point in time? Roll it inverted like Maverick and Denzel?
No. It’s only because pilots in North America have the autopilot on from takeoff to touchdown in most cases that this problem didn’t rear its ugly head here.
The FAA knows it. Boeing knows it. The worldwide aviation regulating bodies know it. The customers know it. It’s not the first time, either.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
OK - my bad. When I said serviceable, I meant the aircraft was capable of flying perfectly fine. It was serviceable until a bird took out the AOA probe.It was not a serviceable airplane.
Yes - this is true. It still does not make #1 untrue.It had a system that was driving a primary flight control to an unsafe situation as the result of a failure of a single component.
No - They did not do exactly as Boeing had instructed - which was a big part of the problem.They (Ethiopian) did exactly what Boeing told them to do and were left with an airplane dangerously out of trim and were unable to manually trim it.
Really - This is a rational question??Tell me, rationally, what would you have done differently at that point in time? Roll it inverted like Maverick and Denzel?
Rubbish. No matter who flies it (Not just North America) First - they all fly it the same.... and second - The system will not engage (or if it is already engaged - will disengage) if this problem arose. Everybody would be in the same boat.No. It’s only because pilots in North America have the autopilot on from takeoff to touchdown in most cases that this problem didn’t rear its ugly head here.
Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
Then there's that "small" issue of leaving the thrust levers at MCT (or worse...) for much if not all of the flight until that speed was waaaay beyond any normal realm. Pretty huge oversight. Even with all the conflicting warnings, someone still has to aviate. (This is an understatement...) Serviceable aircraft? Nope. Well handled by the crew? Same answer.
Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
How would you suggest one should attempt to climb with a (perceived) non responsive elevator?GRK2 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:39 am Then there's that "small" issue of leaving the thrust levers at MCT (or worse...) for much if not all of the flight until that speed was waaaay beyond any normal realm. Pretty huge oversight. Even with all the conflicting warnings, someone still has to aviate. (This is an understatement...) Serviceable aircraft? Nope. Well handled by the crew? Same answer.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
By your response I am quite sure you either have no related experience, (that's ok, it's not a bad thing) or you didn't read the report(s) in which there was a lot of criticism leveled at the crew for their serious mismanagement of the basics of aircraft handling. Go find it and read the part about auto throttle and speed management.
Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
It would be nice if arguments get attacked instead of the person making the argument.GRK2 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:44 pm By your response I am quite sure you either have no related experience, (that's ok, it's not a bad thing) or you didn't read the report(s) in which there was a lot of criticism leveled at the crew for their serious mismanagement of the basics of aircraft handling. Go find it and read the part about auto throttle and speed management.
My point is that you can only get an airplane with a stuck nose down trim/elevator to climb by increasing speed. It would be better to overspeed and fly, than to crash with the speed within limits.
You can maybe make an argument about the trim cut out switches, but faulting them for not reducing power when they are in an uncontrolled descend is silly.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.
I would like to read the reports that criticize the power lever handling; where would I find them?
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.