Autoland in a Piper

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

goldeneagle
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 715
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:28 pm

Autoland in a Piper

Post by goldeneagle »

This is an interesting twist on aircraft automation from Garmin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ruFmgTpqA

Bolding is mine.
Emergency Autoland is the latest layer of embedded automation in Garmin's Autonomi family of flight technologies for the G3000 integrated avionics suite. Coupled with an autothrottle, the autopilot's Emergency Descent Mode and Electronic Stability and Protection, the system ultimately puts the aircraft back on the runway when the pilot can't. With final FAA certification pending, Autloland is expected to be included in the production type certificates for the 2020 Piper M600 turboprop single and the Cirrus Vision Jet. AVweb contributor and Aviation Consumer magazine Editor-in-Chief Larry Anglisano flew with Garmin's full Autonomi system in both aircraft and prepared this field report.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Victory
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:32 am

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by Victory »

$3 million airplane and they are still using the same crappy textured plastic from the 60's on the center pedestal.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
youhavecontrol
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 303
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:17 am

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by youhavecontrol »

Really impressive technology.
---------- ADS -----------
  
"I found that Right Rudder you kept asking for."

iflyforpie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7947
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Winterfell...

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by iflyforpie »

Victory wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:45 am
$3 million airplane and they are still using the same crappy textured plastic from the 60's on the center pedestal.
Why stop there?

Buy a King Air and you can have the same for 8 million.

Buy a 737 and you can have same for 80 million.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

iflyforpie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7947
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Winterfell...

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by iflyforpie »

It says this is for emergency use only. Better than nothing.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

User avatar
valleyboy
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 545
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by valleyboy »

Ah the sign of the times. The era of dumbing down of everything - scary shit
It will also give an excuse for law suits when it doesn't save someone's ass.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Cliff Jumper
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by Cliff Jumper »

Hate to nitpick, but i wonder why the computer didn't seem to care that it was so far right of centerline. You can see on the synthetic vision that it knew it was right, but made no effort to correct. Then again, I've seen hundreds of real live pilots do exactly the same thing.
---------- ADS -----------
  

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7643
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by photofly »

Cliff Jumper wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:04 pm
Hate to nitpick, but i wonder why the computer didn't seem to care that it was so far right of centerline. You can see on the synthetic vision that it knew it was right, but made no effort to correct. Then again, I've seen hundreds of real live pilots do exactly the same thing.
My guess is that if the “centreline” tolerance is tightened up, it’s hard to keep the aircraft from oscillating side to side, on short final, in gusty conditions.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1749
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by rookiepilot »

Very cool.
---------- ADS -----------
  

digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2738
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by digits_ »

The interesting thing is that every plane with a modern autopilot should be able to do this. It should all just be software at this point. If this is a success, I wouldn't be surprised if every newly produced autopilot equipped plane will have this as a standard feature within 5 years.
---------- ADS -----------
  
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7643
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by photofly »

You need FADEC, and this aircraft had servos on the brakes too. How about digital flaps?
---------- ADS -----------
  
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2738
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by digits_ »

Oh right, some kind of throttle automation would be necessary. Brakes would be nice but not required for emergency landings. You could switch off the engine and coast once landed.
---------- ADS -----------
  
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship

broken_slinky
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:48 am

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by broken_slinky »

valleyboy wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:56 pm
Ah the sign of the times. The era of dumbing down of everything - scary shit
It will also give an excuse for law suits when it doesn't save someone's ass.
My first thought on it was if the pilot is incapacitated and the body occupying the co-pilot seat has very little to no flight training. Be an "easy" way to get the plane on the ground and potentially save lives. Especially when it comes to aircraft like the M600 and SF50 where you're dealing with a lot more complex systems and coming in a lot faster.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
valleyboy
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 545
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by valleyboy »

first thought on it was if the pilot is incapacitated and the body occupying the co-pilot seat has very little to no flight training
Only if they can activate the system and get the aircraft configured and lined up.

I already know of guys who have landed, pc 12 for one, on the auto pilot coupled to the GPS and on gravel strips. Sure something to do when you are bored but the auto land system is likely meant for wx and not pilot incapacitation because the lack of auto throttle and such. The system still needs some kind of pilot input.

Like I said, dumbing down and compensating for diminished piloting skills. Automation have eroded stick and rudder skills and is going to continue to do so. It is the primary concern of pilot organizations like ALPA. It will or has surpassed CFIT.
I have even witnessed this first hand as far back as 30 years ago while training pilots who spent most of their time flying auto pilots to an aircraft with non. It was an eye opener.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
HiFlyChick
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:27 am

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by HiFlyChick »

broken_slinky wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:46 am
My first thought on it was if the pilot is incapacitated and the body occupying the co-pilot seat has very little to no flight training. Be an "easy" way to get the plane on the ground and potentially save lives....
But when does that -ever- happen? The more likely scenario will be some turkey with more money than brains up flying when/where he shouldn't, and when he decides that the crosswind is too scary, he hits his good old autoland button. Kind of like when a VFR guy in a cirrus wanders into IMC and pulls the 'chute.... The safety intent is good, but it seems like it just eggs people on to do stupid things because now the machine will get them out of trouble
---------- ADS -----------
  

goldeneagle
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 715
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:28 pm

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by goldeneagle »

valleyboy wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:56 am
but the auto land system is likely meant for wx and not pilot incapacitation because the lack of auto throttle and such. The system still needs some kind of pilot input.
But it does have auto throttle, and flaps, and brakes. Watch the video and that's made pretty clear. Push the big protected button on the panel, computers take over, select an airport, fly the approach, and land on the runway.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
C-GGGQ
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1751
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 12:33 pm

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by C-GGGQ »

It even declares an emergency to ATC and stops on the runway. It's only for pilot incapacitation not for cat 3 approach
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
valleyboy
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 545
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by valleyboy »

.
It's only for pilot incapacitation
Boomers can then fly to an age of 110 :smt040
---------- ADS -----------
  

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7643
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by photofly »

goldeneagle wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:53 am
valleyboy wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:56 am
but the auto land system is likely meant for wx and not pilot incapacitation because the lack of auto throttle and such. The system still needs some kind of pilot input.
But it does have auto throttle, and flaps, and brakes. Watch the video and that's made pretty clear. Push the big protected button on the panel, computers take over, select an airport, fly the approach, and land on the runway.
Yes. I was responding to the comment "The interesting thing is that every plane with a modern autopilot should be able to do this."
Only every plane with a modern autopilot PLUS FADEC, and digital flap and brake control will be able to do this. That's absolutely zero light aircraft in the current fleet.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7643
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by photofly »

HiFlyChick wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:58 am
broken_slinky wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:46 am
My first thought on it was if the pilot is incapacitated and the body occupying the co-pilot seat has very little to no flight training. Be an "easy" way to get the plane on the ground and potentially save lives....
But when does that -ever- happen?
It's not for rich pilots to use, or even to appeal to rich pilots. It's to appease rich pilot's wives so they will allow their rich pilot husbands to buy the airplane. "See, honey? Now you don't need to be frightened to fly with me any more."
---------- ADS -----------
  
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1749
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by rookiepilot »

HiFlyChick wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:58 am

Kind of like when a VFR guy in a cirrus wanders into IMC
Do only cirrus pilots do dumb things like that?
Just curious.
Maybe that model incapacitates the brain?
---------- ADS -----------
  

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7643
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by photofly »

Let's be fair, if you have your seat pushed back and are reading the paper in your Cirrus, or are taking a quick nap, it can be really tricky to spot when you enter IMC.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

firstofficer
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 2:22 pm

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by firstofficer »

Question. If both or the lone pilot are unconscious due to say a carbon monoxide leak, How will the autoland system activate without some manually activating it?
---------- ADS -----------
  

TeePeeCreeper
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: in the bush

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

firstofficer wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:25 pm
Question. If both or the lone pilot are unconscious due to say a carbon monoxide leak, How will the autoland system activate without some manually activating it?
The system has periodic prompts that the pilot must follow by acknowledging them. If the pilot doesn’t do that the aircraft assumes pilot incapacitation and will commence a decent to 14,500 feet. Should further prompts still remain unanswered the auto land system will automatically be engaged.

I’m looking forward to trying it myself soon!

Regards,
TPC
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
valleyboy
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 545
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: Autoland in a Piper

Post by valleyboy »

Technology marches on but what is the reality of this. There will still be the majority of general aviation fly "old" aircraft. Commercial operators will still opt for 2 crew so what percentage of the industry is left.

Full automation and removal of pilots from the flight deck is coming. I see this as part of the movement towards this and it's part of the research and development with very little practical applications at this point in time.

I still maintain all ab initio flight training for the first few hours be done in a NORDO trail dragger before new pilots are introduced to the current tech. Map reading, looking out the window and conventional gear. What a concept. :mrgreen:
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”